Sweet Valley High: A Xennial Girl Summer Reread

It's good twin versus evil twin as we reread the first in the iconic 80's and 90's book series Sweet Valley High. Did you know there are more than 180 of these books by Francine Pascal? We talk about the book itself (holy problematic) and the background of the author, characters and entire francise.

Were you a Sweet Valley fan?

This episode was made possible by the following sources:

Sweet Valley High Online

Grab the Lapels (review site)

Francine Pascal on Wikipedia

r/Sweet Valley High on Reddit

Episode Topics and Mentions

Double Love
Sweet Valley High
Sweet Valley Twins
Sweet Valley Junior High
Sweet Valley University
Sweet Valley Confidential
Fearless
Save Johanna
The Ruling Class
Hanging Out with Cece
If Wishes Were Horses
Anne of Green Gables
Authors
Francine Pascal
Danielle Steel
Harry and the Hendersons
Fast Times at Ridgemont High
Space Camp
Dawson's Creek
In Living Color
The Young Marrieds
ABC Afterschool Specials
My Mother Was Never a Kid
Jerome Offenberg
John Pascal
Jamie Stewart-Carmen
Kate Rubin
William Rubin
Don Meredith
Wayans brothers
Sweet Valley High Characters
Jessica Wakefield
Elizabeth (Liz) Wakefield
Todd Wilkins
Alice Wakefield
Ned Wakefield
Steven Wakefield
Enid Rollins
Rick Andover
Betsy Martin
Alice Martin
Winston
YouTube
Reddit
ThriftBooks
Cosmopolitan
Ladies' Home Journal
Modern Screen
True Confessions
NBC
ABC
ESPN
CVS
Publix
Places
Sweet Valley (fictional)
California
Manhattan
Queens
New York
Los Angeles
France
Scotland
Ghostwriting
Literary ventriloquism
Soap operas
Perimenopause
Brain fog
Eurocentric beauty standards
Patriarchy
Diet culture
Body dysmorphia
Fat shaming
Pretty privilege
Thin privilege
Female competition
Diversity in media
High school stereotypes
Anonymous gossip columns
Catcalling
Body confidence
Aging
Self-esteem
Journalism
Broadway musicals
Competitive dance
Pageants
High school sororities
Pizza classroom prank
Sports cars (Porsche, Fiat, Datsun)
Internet trolls
Reddit fan discussions
Fandom pages

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Transcript

Cold Open And Show Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Jessica.

SPEAKER_00 0:01

She's horrible.

SPEAKER_01 0:02

She's a sociopath. She's trash. She's believe it or not, she's worse in later books. What? Yeah. Hello, listeners, and welcome back to Generation in Between, a Xennial podcast. We're right in the middle of our Zennial Girl Summer. And today we are talking about the third of four books that we're reading this summer of 2026. Sweet Valley High's debut novel, Double Love.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

And I'm Katie.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

And I'm Danny. And if you're new here, hello. Uh, welcome to our podcast where we remember, revisit, and sometimes relearn and reread all kinds of things from the 80s and 90s. So welcome if you're new and welcome back if you've been with us for a bit.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Yes. And so this summer we picked four books and four movies to either re-watch or reread. Sometimes we re-listen to books, although there was not an audiobook to be found. No. This one. Imagine that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Does not exist. Literary classic. Can't find it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

I don't even think they print these anymore. Danny found one on Thriftbooks. Thrift Books, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Yeah, I think they do print them, but they're like updated. So I don't know if it was the same story. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

So we have is the OG thrifted from. I was gonna see if it's from 83. Yeah, 1983.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Yeah, it's AG. So the real one. OG. AG.

Perimenopause Brain Fog Tangent

SPEAKER_00 1:30

I'm gonna tell y'all what perimenopause brain fog is for real. I my hormones are doing all kinds of crazy stuff, and we won't go into details of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

But everything they tell you is true.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

It's true, believe them.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

And also, and also this nonsense saying perimenopause can last 10 years. Why are women so fucking cursed and men just get to walk around and be ugly and like and nobody cares? And nobody cares.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Ugly and old.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Their face just gets to be out all the time. They never cover it, they never get laser.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

They don't wear makeup.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Okay, well, that's all not that's some do. Some do care.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Some do.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

I'm sorry. I shouldn't say everyone. I'm saying it's not expected for them to do it.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Correct. Correct. All right.

YouTube Growth And Commenter Drama

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Guess what? I have some good news. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_00 2:16

I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

We passed 100 subscribers on YouTube. I saw that this morning. 102. Look at that. That's called growth, everyone. That's called growth. Yes. Years ago when I was helping a different company with some marketing, they, and so this was years ago. Might not still be true. They had said when you get to 150 subscribers, that's like a benchmark for YouTube. That's pretty sure they continue like um feature your stuff more often in feeds and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Okay, well, guess how long it took us to get to 102?

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Well, we've been doing it the YouTube part, what a year and a half?

unknown 2:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

A year and a half. But every time someone likes or subscribes, there's a better chance someone sees that.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Well, listen, and honestly, we got a lot more follows after all those people were jerks. So speaking of, before we get going on this book, I had the funniest there was the funniest comment. So our episode last week was about Harry and the Henderson's the 80s movie. And so one of our socials clips, did I take a picture of it? I think I did. I think you took a screenshot. I know, but because I said that doesn't necessarily mean it actually happened or I wanted to do it. Do you know what I mean? I do. So um oh I did. So one of our clips this week was just about the like it's just basic stuff about the movie because those get us a lot of watches too. Whenever I have pictures with old movies, that gets a lot of views, other than if it's just us two being shenanigans. Yeah. Okay. So it was just uh the clip about um the guy who played Harry and some facts about him. And somebody was and it said, Oh, here's some of his other Xennial film credits. Somebody commented and it said, Zenil, it's not a real thing, bubblehead.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Oh, I love it. Like, who bubblehead?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Bobblehead. I was like, okay, first of all, that's hilarious. I don't think I've ever been called anything funnier in my life. Uh, but like, who like just sees something come across our the things people say on their see something come across their feet and be like, oh, I need to let them know that that word's not real and I'm going to insult them. What can I call them?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Do you think they were trying to say bobblehead? I don't know. Because that's a thing. Well, because that because maybe we've got like big heads in the video. A little bit bobblehead. Or I don't know. Uh hey, listeners, if bubble head is an insult we've never heard, maybe it's maybe it's a young person.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Well, do you know what they're um because then I whenever people say like trolley things, I like to go to their profile and see, and usually they're huge douchebags, and this also was one. Do y'all remember? I can't remember the name of it, but on in Living Color, did you ever watch that show? Yeah. There, this is such a problematic skit. There was a skit that one of the Wayne's brothers starred in, and he was like a superhero, but he was like, um, I don't remember what they called him, but it was something very offensive. He was like mentally challenged.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Do you remember this?

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Uh-uh.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

And that was his profile picture.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

That was this person who called us a bubble, maybe meant bobblehead.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Okay. Well, I feel okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

And then I saw that picture and I went, oh shit, I forgot about that skit. Like, so problematic. I'll look it up when we're done and show you, and you're gonna be like, oh my god, that's literally awful.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Yeah, nothing I'm sure they regret that now. Well, I can sleep at night knowing that person's thinks we made up or are using a made-up word. Not that we make it up, but it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

I don't

Double Love Reread First Impressions

SPEAKER_00 5:59

care.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Okay, so let's jump in. Let's jump in. I we're I know we're gonna talk more in depth, but what did you think of the reread of Double Love, Sweet Valley High?

SPEAKER_00 6:10

All right. If we would like to know why so many girls have um so many girls of our age have issues with their appearance, this book is a prime number one example.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Yes, and there's like 181 more crazy series. Yeah, this book times that many.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

I mean, it was full of and now listen, whenever we reread stuff or rewatch stuff, we talk about this was problematic when it was written, you y'all. Right. This is not I mean there is so much. I mean, there's classist stuff in there. There's um like patriarchal, Eurocentric beauty standards shoved down your throat every fucking page. Yeah, there's all kind of like diet, culture, body problem things. What am I missing?

SPEAKER_01 7:15

There's like dating, not violence, but like um, like the one guy who is basically trying to assault right, just that was supposed to be a problem.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

It was. I mean, that was supposed to be a problem.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

It wasn't but the idea of like getting ready and like just like going not telling anyone where you're going and meeting up with this guy, which again was supposed to be a problem. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah, like that that to me was like what that to me honestly was the least problematic part of the book because I was like, well, that really does happen. And that to me was a little more realistic than all the rest of it. Right. And also, we'll talk more about it when we after we do the research. Um, Elizabeth or is it Elizabeth or Jessica? Who's the one the one that lies all the time?

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Jessica.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

She's fucking horrible.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

She's a sociopath.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

She's fucking trash.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

She's believe it or not, she's worse in later books. What? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

All she'd be doing is lying. And she's a narcissist. Yes. Why am I holding my hand like this? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Very absurd. It's a very it's very um dinosaur.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Anyway, I don't know why I'm doing that.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Yes. So, yes, lots of problems in this book, which we'll get more into some of like the specifics of that um as we go. So let's find out the why of this book. What's what's happening here? Let's please. All

Sweet Valley Franchise And Ghostwriters

SPEAKER_01 8:41

right. So Double Love is the 1983 iconic debut of the Sweet Valley High series. So this is book one, created by Francine Pascal. Identical twins, Elizabeth and Jessica Wakefield clash over the same boy. While kind Elizabeth falls for the new basketball star Todd Wilkins, her manipulative sister Jessica sets her sights on him too, kicking off a bitter competition. Well, that was the other thing, and another, which I'll I I went on Reddit, of course, so I'll let you know. Oh boy, later. Reddit Rabbit Tails. Stick around for that. Um it pits women against each other a lot. Yeah. Like left and right. It is supposed to be a soap opera for teens. So there's that. But it's it it really makes women in competition the whole time. Yeah. Everything even like Enid's like friendship, like there's moments. I know it's kind of crazy. And like the twins themselves pitted against each other. So there's that. Okay. So in the Sweet Valley High series, there's a whole franchise, right? Sweet Valley Twins is prequels. Oh, right. Written when they were younger, even though they were younger. There's Sweet Valley University, which was written later. And then there was one more called Sweet Valley. I have it later. It's like Sweet Valley Legacy or something like that. That was written way later, like in the 2000s, um, that people hate. Which we'll get to that people hate. Well, so Pascal wrote the first seven books, and that was it. She hired ghostwriters. Oh, have we talked about this before? Not her, but it happened with somebody else. Okay. I'm trying to remember who it was. It was not um anyone, it was someone else. Oh, um, Danielle Steele.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Oh, okay. That's it. Danielle Steele. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

That's how they crank out so many. So essentially, she would give like the outline and the direction and this team of writers. So they're never named in any of the books. They are credited under a collective pseudonym, pseudonym, Kate Williams. So the whole franchise, the Sweet Valley franchise has sold over 200 million copies worldwide. Whoa. Yeah. There's 181 books in the main Sweet Valley High series, which is 143 original paperbacks, 39 special editions. So there's super editions, thrillers, and a magna edition.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 11:04

I have no idea. If you include the various spin-off series, so the ones I mentioned, Sweet Valley Twins, Sweet Valley Junior High, oh, I forgot about that. Sweet Valley Valley Junior High, Sweet Valley University. There's over 600 books.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

That's craziness.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Following their life. I do not care about reading any more of them. Yeah, there's so many.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

I think my sister had all of these, the Sweet Valley High ones.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Yeah. I had a bunch of them too. She had Sweet Valley

Francine Pascal Backstory

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Twins. Okay. So Francine Pascal, she was born Francine Paula Rubin on May 13th, 1932, in Manhattan, New York. She was raised in Queens and she was the daughter of Kate. Oh, I just figured something out. Her mom's name is Kate, and her dad's name is William. Oh. And the pseudonym's Kate Williams.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

She y'all, she's surprised by her research again.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Here I am again. I just remember thinking, oh, Kate, that's all.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Oh, I just figured this out, even though I'm the one who typed this and looked it up.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yeah. Well, I'm looking at them next to each other now. So uh her mom was a homemaker. Her dad was an auctioneer. Okay. Yeah. And she's um from Jewish background. She studied journalism at New York University. So she was a she's a journalist. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And she began her career writing for magazines that included Cosmopolitan, Ladies' Home Journal, Modern Screen, and True Confessions. Amazing. So in 1958, she married Jerome Offenberg, but they actually divorced in 1963. They didn't um have any kids yet. And then in 64, she married John Pascal, and they were married till he died in 1981. So he actually died before any of this happened.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Yeah. They were both writers and they were hired for the soap opera, The Young Married. That's a great name. I love that. The Young Married. The newlyweds, essentially. Um, but the show, like the whole team of the show, got moved from New York to LA to like produce the show there, and they decided not to go. Oh. So they stayed in New York. They wrote a Broadway musical. What? Yep. Called George M. Okay. Uh, and then she wrote her first novel in 1977. It was called Hangin Out with CeCe. Uh and it was turned into an ABC after school special in the 80s called My Mother Was Never a Kid. Very traumatic. That sounds very childhood teen trauma based after school special material. Definitely. So around that time, she really wanted to get back into writing for a soap opera, but she really couldn't come up with like an original idea. She couldn't get on the writing staff anywhere. So a friend of hers who worked in publishing gave her an idea to do a book series. And hey, why don't you make it for teenagers? Which apparently was a great idea in Francine's mind. And she started developing a book. And this became the successful Sweet Valley High series set in the fictitious southern town of Sweet Valley. And she did write those first seven books herself, and then the rest were ghostwriters to help expand it quickly. Okay. Like get it spun out.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Capitalism, that's why.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Capitalism. Make that money. Okay. So the one that was in the 2000s, the final one, she actually came back and did write herself in 2011. Okay. It's called Sweet Valley Confidential. People hated it for like lots of different reasons. Like she I mean, this happens when you have that many books that literally other people are writing. Maybe not even that you are writing, the storylines were like not didn't make sense. And like things were happening that like a person had like died or like something like that. So people were like, this is terrible.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Well, also it had been a while. I mean, 2011, these came out in the early 80s. Like things are a little different.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

I was also born in 1932. Right. Right. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

So ochre. Do you know what? I'm sitting here. Hold for a second. Does our back our backdrop looks different? I think we are we switched. I think it's upside down.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Because I'm like, why is there so much green? Because usually the green is I think it's upside down. Because I think the pink is usually in your corner.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Yeah, usually I'm pink. You look bad. You look nice with the blue. And then there's in the middle of whatever. I don't know. I just am like, why?

SPEAKER_00 15:16

I'm like, everything looks weird. And it it's because we we had to take it down for our live event and then put it back up. And I think we just put it up upside down. Which we can fix, and it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Because that can go over there. It's just throwing me. It's oh, there's a fly.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

There's a fly that won't leave us alone. Are that a spider?

SPEAKER_01 15:34

I don't know. We don't have good eyes, so we don't know. Don't flick it toward me. I don't know. I was seeing if it could fly. Let's see. Here. Let's find out. Are you going to sting or fly away? Which thing are you going to bite?

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Okay, I'm sorry. That's just been bothering me, but I figured it out. I'm like, what is looking like live?

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Look at that.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

And you didn't know did you notice?

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

I think it's because the green. I think I remember when we hung it, we were like, we don't need to have the green so centered.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

So then we changed it.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

And we changed it.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

That sounds right. Well, here we are. It'll probably look different next time. So that's okay because it's okay. We're we're gonna go with it. 100%. Alright, so let's see here. She also wrote a couple other books, something called The Fearless series. Never heard of that. One called Save Johanna, and something called The Ruling Class, which that one sounds familiar. That might there's been so many books like that. True. She had three children, and her daughter, Jamie Stewart Carmen, was an NBC producer, but she died in 2008. I looked up like how she died, and uh the family never released the reason, but she was like in she was like 40 or something. Ooh. Yeah, so I don't know what happened there. Uh and then I told you her first husband died in 1981. She did write a 1994 novel called Wish If Wishes Were Horses. I thought it was supposed to be if wishes were fishes. Well, I guess she did a little play on words. That doesn't rhyme. Because what is the phrase? If wishes were fishes. I want to say this is totally wrong. Oh, what is it? We'd all have a Merry Christmas. But that's something else. No, it's like if ifs and butts were if candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

unknown 17:26

What are we talking about?

SPEAKER_00 17:28

What? That's not real. Okay, it probably is. All right, I gotta say now. If wishes were that nuts and butts. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Ifs and butts. Nuts and butts.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Oh, if wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Oh, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

That's what it is. And it says it's a spin-off of the of the classic Scottish proverb: if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Look at that. There we go. We figured out that mystery.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

She put nuts and butts, and it's gonna come up with something very different.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

I know. I gotta be careful. I think I have safe search on myself just to be. Do you really? Probably. If if ifs and butts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas. That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

I've never heard that. If ifs and butts were candy and nuts, that's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Meaning everyone makes excuses. Who said that?

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Who originated that?

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Um Don Meredith, a Dallas Cowboys quarterback. Profound literary genius. Thank you, sir. Dallas quarterback. And Monday night football announcer. That's amazing. That's hilarious. He must okay. He said it in a game between the Colts and the Packers on November 9th, 1970.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Well, look at all the info y'all are learning today.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Scottish proverbs and quotes from ESPN guys.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

So the saying from the early 19th century it's based on is if ifs and ands were pots and pans, there'd be no work for Tinker's hands. I don't like that. That one sucks. That's too much to say. Of the three that we just looked up, nah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Okay, well now we know it was a play on the Scottish proverb if wishes were fishers.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

So they wonderful job, Pascal. Sending us down a rabbit hole. Um, and that was an auto fiction about her marriage and widowhood. And but in it, the protagonist moves to France.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

What does auto fiction mean? Based on your life. Uh-huh. Yeah, just fiction. But it's fictional. Based on relevance. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Princetine Pascal did pass away in 2024 at the age of 92.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Yeah. So she lived a long life. All right.

Meet The Wakefield Crew

SPEAKER_01 19:34

So let's talk about the main characters in this series. Oh my gosh. There's a lot of characters. We're just gonna touch on the very basic ones that if if you were to read this series from front to back, would show up in every book.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Oh, okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Jessica Wakefield.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Who's trash?

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Jessica Wakefield is one half of the identical Wakefield twins. She's outgoing, impulsive, and incredibly popular. But why? No one knows.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

She's a mean girl too.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Like she thrives on attention and excitement. She is confident, flirtatious, and often acts before thinking, which leads her into plenty of drama. Oh, but then this is this is from like the official like fandom page of Sweet Valley. While she can be selfish and manipulative at times, she is fiercely loyal to the people she loves. Not in this book. What? Not at all. She enjoys dating, socializing, shopping, and being the center of attention, often dragging her more cautious sister into her latest scheme.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

So she's basically a narcissist.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Yes. I feel like it's like the setup of like on soap operas where you have the star and then they have an evil twin. Yeah. I feel like this is kind of like that. Yeah. The evil twin is like going around like murdering people. Yeah. And then the real person's like framed for it. Like, oh, it's my evil, long-lost twin. I feel like this is Jessica's that. She is. She is that. So then Elizabeth, who they often just refer to as Liz in the books, she's the identical twin. She's completely opposite in personality, thoughtful, responsible, compassionate. She's the editor of the school newspaper and values honesty above all else. Well, not so much in this book either. I know, because she really wasn't honest either. She prefers books and meaningful friendships over popularity and parties. She's often the voice of reason, trying to clean up Jessica's message while navigating her own challenges. Though sometimes she can be overly idealistic, her kindness and integrity make her one of Sweet Valley High's most respected students. Except when they thought she was at the roadhouse in this book. I'm reading this and I'm like, So stupid. Everyone's like, I can't believe it was her. And I went, she has an identical twine, y'all. No one's like, are you sure it wasn't Jessica? Like, no one, like Todd is like, oh wow, this is so disappointing and surprising. It's just Todd. Hello? Well, and also Jessica is such a liar.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Like, she's like, Oh, I didn't get a chance to say to correct the police officer.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

Yes, you did. It's not that hard.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

You just say that's my sister. I am Jessica.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Also just correct people then in real time. But she kind of said something to the extent of well, like I'm not gonna make an announcement that it was me, but if someone asks me I'll tell them which what is that called?

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Um what is that called? And like exclusion. No.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Yeah, line by omission.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Omission.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. Where it's like, well, to someone's face, I'll tell them, but I'm not gonna like, yeah. So all right, so let's talk about Todd, which must he must just be incredibly wonderful and attractive. Uh he is a star basketball player, and he does end up being Elizabeth's longtime boyfriend. He's handsome, dependable, and athletic, and he's known for his steady, down-to-earth personality. While his relationship with Elizabeth experiences, it shares of breakups and misunderstandings throughout the series. I wonder who might be behind those. He genuinely cares for her and is often portrayed as loyal and supportive. He balances popularity with humility and is well liked by both athletes and academics. All American boy, Todd Wilkins. Oh boy. Yeah, okay, Todd. So Alice Wakefield is their mother. She's a loving, organized matriarch of the Wakefield family. She works as an interior designer and is known for creating a warm, welcoming home. She's patient and nurturing. She's the emotional anchor of the family.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

She works full-time and does it all, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Right. Yeah, there's like a part where she makes this crazy meal when her name comes over. Yeah. And it's like the most like involved meal.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

It's like she just got home from work.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

She's like, let me, yeah. Oh my god. She's like, okay. She has a particularly close relationship with Elizabeth. Okay. But loves both daughters equally, despite frequently being exasperated by Jessica's antics. Well, because she's psycho. Yeah, I don't I don't I would be exasperated at the least. No kidding. She believes in honesty family, giving her children the freedom to learn from their mistakes. Okay. Okay, Alice. So in the Sweet Valley Twins and Junior High series, she drinks a lot. Oh, she does. Like it's a whole thing. Her like she she it's like basically. Like there's moments where like the family has to like confront it. But I mean, obviously, this is only book one, but some of the things I was reading in general is that these books were written first, and that it's like no one reread them to write the other ones. So like Ad Wilkins, for example, is a big part of the Sweet Valley Twins and Junior High books. But then in this book, it makes it sound like they're he's just getting to know Elizabeth in class. But they like know each other.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Oh yeah. So they didn't they didn't do their research.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

They set up Alice in the prequels that she kind of has these alcohol problems and these sort of mental health struggles. And then it goes away. But then it kind of goes away. But this was written first. So they added that component later. So they just went Ned Wakefield, the father, he's a successful attorney. He's calm, intelligent, deeply devoted to his family. I don't know. Generally portrayed as a fair and supportive father, he often serves as a family's problem solver and moral compass. Who is writing this? In the original Sweet Valley High series, he is not depicted as having an affair. If you're oh it says that some people have taken it from there that him and this lady had an affair, but apparently it's never confirmed.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

No, they said it they didn't have it.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

That they didn't have it, but like she keeps kind of coming back in, so it's kind of implied. So some people out there are still like, yeah, okay, okay. But it's never confirmed. So maybe he is a loyal family man. Alright, so that's Ned. Stephen Wakefield. Oh yeah, the brother. He's about 18 at the 18 at the time. He's dating someone from the wrong side of the tracks. Luckily, he actually likes her sister, who's also from the wrong side of the tracks, but is better. Trisha's better than the one that made me cringe so hard. It was horrible.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

It was so they're like, she lives in a trailer, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Yeah, she yeah. Oh god. It's like a mess.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Oh, jeez.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

So the other part, one part I was kind of like okay with in the book is Jessica's, you know, just nosy as hell and manipulative. So she's trying to get Steven to go out with one of her friends. And he says, She's too young. She's in high school. Yeah, true. And I was like, oh my gosh. Something that was done correctly. One thing. I don't think it was a moral thing. I think it was a ew no, like I'm too like mature for that. Yes, you are, sir.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

But good.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Go out with that girl from the wrong side of the tracks instead. She's your age. Um, he's often the cool older brother who bridges the gap between teenage life and adulthood. So then we got Enid Rollins. She's the last one I've got in here. Obviously, there's a zillion other characters, but she's Liz's best friend. She's one of the most intelligent students at Sweet Valley High, quiet, bookish, academically driven. She prefers reading, studying, thoughtful conversations. She serves as a loyal confidant to Elizabeth, sharing many of the same values. She's often portrayed as shy and socially awkward, but she does have a like a sense of humor. She's got a very dry sense of humor. Depending which book you're reading, it kind of comes through. Sometimes she feels overshadowed by Elizabeth, um, you know, probably because they're the way that they look and all the things. Uh, but she actually, I read a couple different message boards that basically say, like, of all the characters, Enid shows the most growth in the series, like growth at all.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

And they set it up at the end of this book that some kind of secrets going on with her. Uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Yeah. So anyway, a lot of people really like Enid and still do. Okay. Kind of the underdog, I guess.

Controversies: Diversity And Feminism

SPEAKER_01 28:00

All right. So some controversy about well, this book and all the books. Here we go.

unknown 28:05

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

So the ghostwriting, that's not really controversial if you're up front about it. But a lot of the people who were on that team have like later spoken out that it was just kind of militant in how it went out. They couldn't add any creative flair. But again.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

But again, you know that going in.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Like, I mean, I get it, but if you know you're gonna be a ghostwriter from Jump and you're just taking somebody's stuff and putting them out what they want, that's what you're getting paid for.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Exactly. Exactly. So that was one. Um some of the writers called it literary ventriloquism, which is actually a good definition of ghostwriting. Right. That's what you're being paid to do. Yeah. One thing, like when I was mostly freelance writing for my career, the thing that I got really good at and that helped me get a lot of work was writing to spec. Not coming in and going, well, I think blah, blah, blah. Occasionally you might have a great idea or think like something's totally off track and you might want to bring it up. But to for someone to just give me the brief and say, it needs this many words, we need this, or keywords, or it needs to be about this and this much research, and just doing it. And being able to do that for like multiple clients who have different specs. That's like how you get good at that. Yeah. And what sometimes I could get my name on something, and other times I they wouldn't put it on there, and I'd be glad. You get paid anyway. I'm like, I don't want my name on that 500-word blog post about concrete cement. Like what? Like, I'm okay, you know. So it's yeah, that's just kind of what ghostwriting is, but people have spoken out about that. And I'm sure it's whatever. Um, lack of diversity in the book.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

Oh, right. Like I said, Eurocentric, patriarchal beauty standards are ridiculous. But I mean, that was the 80s. Like, we're not that's what I'm saying. Like, yes, it was a different time, but it can still be a problem, even though it was a different time. It was a problem then because you didn't just all of a sudden have diversity later. We've had diversity since the beginning of time. So, like, there are people of all kinds of backgrounds in the world and in this country.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

So California. Yeah. Yeah. They it people just say how it was this like rigid, idealized blonde, Eurocentric, like you said, white and privileged, not really any minority characters, not many, not at all. Not diverse socioeconomic background.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Oh my gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Everybody's driving sports cars and like pulls up next to the Porsche and she's in the fiat or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

And then she's like throwing her fit because she can't drive the fancy car.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

And then, like, um, and then the only difference socioeconomic that they have is considered bad. And then, like, oh, well, the one girl, she's good from there. She's the exception to the rule.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

And it's almost like the poor people, despite all that.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Like, how shocking that she's a good person.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

You know, yeah. Uh yeah. So there's definitely that anti-feminist tropes, right? Negative stereotypes about young women, physical beauty, popularity, uh, securing male validation, and literally, and framing female relationships as competitive.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Yeah, I mean, all the problematic things, like they spent the first few pages just talking about how beautiful they were, how pretty they are. Like, their hair is perfect, their skin is perfect, their blue eyes, their waist is tiny. Like, okay.

Beauty Standards And Kid Memories

SPEAKER_00 31:30

And so I now I'm going to show you this picture. So I'm so excited. My sister, if y'all been listening for a long time, have heard about her. So she's seven years older than me. My sister looked like these girls in the 80s, okay? I did not. My sister has naturally blonde platinum blonde hair. She's never dyed it. I think she dyed it one time ever in her life. And it was because she went swimming at a friend's house. We had a swimming pool growing up, but we used a different kind of chemical than chlorine. Um, and she went to a friend's house who used chlorine and it turned her hair green. So that I think was the only time she can correct me. Anyway, let's fat. Let me tell y'all what I looked like. Not that.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Not the cover of this.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

No, I had dark hair, dark eyes, I'm built differently. Like my sister and I are both short, like everybody in our family is short, but I carry weight very differently than her. So I was like a bigger bodied kid for a very long time. My sister was never, she I just I swear to God, she like never went through one of those phases. And so I she had these books, and I'm sure when she read them, and my sister was very popular, she was like uh one of the, of course, you know, it was the 80s and she was pretty. So there you go. There you go. Uh, I was not on the other hand, but I remember reading these books because I read all her stuff because I was an advanced reader and that's what you do. And I remember just feeling so terrible about myself. Like so terrible, because I'm like, well, I don't look, I'm high school's gonna suck for me because I look terrible. Let me show you a picture of my sister, okay? In the 80s. I can't wait. Well, let me see. This was 1988. So um, let's see, I was eight, so she was she was like 14, 15, so probably a freshman in high school. You gotta laugh. This is one of her dance team pictures. She's gonna die that I'm sharing this, but I don't care. I'm a little sister and I'm annoying. So look at this perm and everything.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Oh my gosh. The starlet.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

Oh that was a competitive dance team. She was on hold. I'm gonna show y'all the picture.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

It comes YouTube.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

So here it comes.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Oh, that's so adorable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Now, if I had a picture at the ready of what I look like in my C98, we're just gonna show her picture. I did, I don't, I will look for one later, but anyway, that was my sister. So I'm sure, like, for people out there, like who were most people who looked like me reading these books were like, what? Well, great. Like, right, what do I have to look forward to?

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Absolutely. This makes you feel bad. And you bring up a good point because that I'm sure there were people in high school reading these, but for the most part, I think the reading group was younger than these. Oh, yeah, right. So you would be maybe upper elementary, middle school, middle school, yeah. Thinking about like what it's gonna be like in high school. What am I gonna look like in the middle of your awkward stage, you know? So it's a very formative time to form opinions about yourself. Now, again, to be fair, this is a soap opera series, which, you know, if you even watch modern soap operas on TV, everyone's attractive. I know, everyone's a certain body type, everyone, you know. I know. And and that's kind of the allure of those things, right? Because you're sort of supposed to be fantastical. You're escaping to sort of this aspirational state or whatever, yeah. Which is a different story for grown-ass people who you can still make you feel bad, but like it's it's this formative stuff that is, yeah, a problem.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Keep talking. I'm I'm if I'm looking for a picture of what I look like in 1980.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Okay, do it. All right, so lack of diversity, anti-feminist tropes. Um, okay, so I mentioned this a little, but I have a little more on it. The Sweet Valley Confidential Backlash in 2011.

SPEAKER_00 35:25

Oh, what that was her book.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

She okay she wrote the adult sequel and it caused an uproar among longtime fans. It was very bizarre and there were some jarring character choices. So, for example, the plot featured the good twin, Elizabeth, suffering a nervous breakdown after after discovering that the bad twin, Jessica, had been having a secret, passionate affair with Todd. They were married at this point. That was like the main thing. What um fans just said it like ruined the nostalgic legacy of the original books.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Yikes.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

And again, like characters that like really shouldn't be there and mentioning things from other books that weren't like quite accurate.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

So that that was like written from when they were grown-ups. They were grown ups and married and sleeping with your brother-in-law. But that is a soap opera, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

It is, it is, and maybe she just wanted one more out there. Um, okay, so what do people on Reddit think about the Sweet Valley

Reddit Takes And Twin Morality

SPEAKER_01 36:28

series? Let's hear it. There's some pretty good ones. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Do you ever comment when you go read? Okay, I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

I might I might start. Okay. She's like, that's gonna be my new part-time job. That was a good yeah. Just just commenting. There's so much already on Reddit, I don't even need to add original posts. I'll just go to posts that are already there. It'll be fine. Replicate. What I should be doing is putting like a link to our episodes when I go back. Should you though? But then the Redditors will have something to say about that, which is fine. But no.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Hey, if we get our own Reddit thread, we win.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

We win. I love that. Okay, so this Redditor says fully maturing is realizing that Elizabeth wasn't completely innocent either. Not only because there were times when she enabled Jessica's behavior. Well, yeah. So there's that, but also since she went from a hardworking, reserved, studious, caring, kind, and compassionate girl to a nagging, meddling, judgmental, sanctimonious, and condescending hypocrite, she gets upset at Jessica when she cheats on her boyfriends, but Elizabeth has also been doing the same thing, cheating on her own boyfriends throughout the series, especially Todd. So getting some hot water down the road. Not to mention that Elizabeth has done other certain things that were just as cruel as anything Jessica's ever done, but then this person doesn't mention what those are. Yet it's somehow okay when Elizabeth's doing it. Who do you think is worse?

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Well, I mean, I've I don't remember all the books.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

But I feel like they're both kind of trash. Like Jessica in this book is more trash than Elizabeth.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

But I mean, they probably are both equally trash.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

So I mean, and you can't have as a writer, even a ghostwriter, you can't have the same character in every book. I mean, they do, but like you have to find new ways to kind of you have to evolve them. You do. All right. Another person says, I deeply dislike Jessica when I read the books as a kid. I wonder if I reread them if I'd have a different opinion. I was much more of an Anna Green Gables girl anyway.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Oh, I know I've been listening to this book. Oh boy. I have you even listened. You're gonna have feelings about some of the parts. It's not gonna be all nostalgic.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Oh boy. Okay, that's our next read, guys. After Space King.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

There's a lot of talk about appearance in that book, too.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Oh boy. Good times. All right. Someone else said, I was surrounded by girls like both Elizabeth and Jessica. I was more like an Enid, but romanticized the Wakefield twins thinking to be fully accepted by people, I needed to be more like them. See, I wish I could go back to my younger self, hug the hell out of her, and tell her Enids are the true badasses.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Well, I mean, how about you don't have to be an Enid, you can just be yourself. Correct. That's what I wish I could tell my younger self is like just just don't keep trying to change for other reasons. Just be yourself. Yeah. Be weird, be kooky, be loud, just just do it.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Absolutely. Yeah. Just be yourself.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

And if you're not any of those things, like be if you're if you want to be quiet, be quiet. Like I think my husband probably is would like to tell his younger self the opposite. Like, be quiet if you want to be quiet. You don't have to try and make yourself extroverted if you're introverted. Like, there's nothing wrong with that. Like, you're fine. So, but you know, that's all in hindsight. We can't tell our younger self shit.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

So we're we're wise now. Um, then my final Reddit one that I found was someone said, I thought this was just really funny. Spent years side-eyeing every Jessica I encountered in real life for no reason, only to realize it was just Jessica Wakefield running a long-term smear campaign in my brain.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

I mean I mean, it is popular. It is popular. It is possible to be a popular person who is beautiful and be kind. I knew several.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Oh, sure. I know several now.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

But I know I knew plenty who were not. But it is possible. I mean, think of celebrities. Sure. There are some that seem like genuinely nice people um that are beautiful and you know, rich and all the things. You don't have to be a trash person, but no, you don't.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

You don't.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

I I I don't know because I am this gonna sound really funny. I don't know because I've never been one of those people who's like naturally like just you know, gorgeous and everybody looks at you and stares at you. It takes some work, okay?

SPEAKER_01 40:52

And then everybody stares at you.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

Well, do you know what I'm saying? Like some people, like obviously it's what it's made out in this book that they're just naturally gorgeous. And there are people like that.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

There are.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

And you know, but I I'm sure it's probably if you are already uh getting attention for being beautiful and people are always telling you stuff about how you look, it's probably very difficult not to be a trash person.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

That's true. I mean, you get advantages because of it, and also I mean you have pretty privilege, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

Thin privilege.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

And I mean, I have no idea because I also am not one of those people.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

I feel like, yes, in your pageant days, probably.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Maybe, but I mean that's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Oh, well, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

The pageant itself, it takes a lot of work, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was at that time, I was dying my hair blonde, going to obtaining the working out all the time. So it wasn't just like I woke up and I was like, Yeah, oh great. I'm and the birds were saying, Yeah, exactly. Um, but I will say I don't I don't know what the pr there's probably a pressure of that too. Like, I don't know, I'm sure we have some listeners who are naturally gorgeous. You can let us know. Not to like be like, oh poor them, but I'm sure there is a little bit of like a okay, well, yes, I look like this, but also I'm this, this, and this for some people. Um, or the pressure of living up to that, especially as you age, yeah, as you have children, as your body changes. Like if that identity kind of gets dampened a little bit, you know, that must be hard too. It's much easier to just be average looking.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Honestly, no expectation. And then when you get older, you just don't care. Like, I'm telling you, there there were decades when I wouldn't leave the house without some kind of makeup on. And now, more often than not, which I know to some people sounds stupid, but there's, you know, a lot of we've talked about that before, a lot of uh ideas placed in your head when you're young. But now it's like I go out and sometimes I'll catch a glimpse of myself like running errands or something. I'm like, oh my god, what is happening? I look so bad.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

Oh my god, yes. And the CVS one does it from like an angle, so I can also see like my part line. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Oh my god. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

I see all my gray hair.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

And like, where's my hair going? Like, it's so wide. Oh, it's absolutely the worst. But I guess it takes solace knowing pretty probably everyone looks bad in those.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

I mean, I'm sure some people don't. Some people don't. But it is, it is, but also like I I've ri you realize as you get older, people do not care what you look like walking around. Like, people are so much more consumed with themselves than you.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

I mean, what really like turned that light bulb on for me was thinking about how much do I look at other people and notice. Right. Not at all. Like, if it's very outlandish, you might be like, oh, what's it?

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Well, sometimes like if somebody has on a cute outfit or something, I will definitely notice. And I always notice people's hair because I have really thin hair. This is two things I do notice. When somebody has really nice hair, just because I have thin hair, so when people have like thick, beautiful hair and like naturally curly, beautiful, but whatever my hair isn't. And theirs is naturally like that. I will notice that. And then when people have nice teeth, because I have spent so much money to fix my crooked ass jank teeth.

unknown 44:10

Y'all even know.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

So when people naturally have nice teeth, like my husband just naturally has nice, straight, beautiful teeth. Bullshit. And our poor kids got my genes, and we've had to spend so much money on orthodontics. It's insane. But I do notice that. But that has nothing to do with I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

It's not a judgment.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

It's no, I but I do notice. I'm like, man, their hair is awesome. But that used to happen to me a lot when I had pink hair because people are like, oh my god, I love your hair. It's fun.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Yeah. Nobody says that to me now because I have boring hair now.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

But so it's not that like, so what you're saying there is that you do care about some things because they in a way they're interesting to you or they bring you joy to like see someone's hair done a certain way or teeth. But I guess what we mean by like no one cares is the opposite. Like you can look terrible and like it's not, it's not hurt dampering anyone else's day.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Like I've never like the only no, I the only time I will notice what somebody's wearing is if they have like a butt cheek hanging out at the checkout line or something like that. I'm like, oh, okay, I see that person's butt cheek, and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do about that. Do I look? Do I not? You know what I mean? But like if somebody I don't care what you're wearing, like honestly, does it doesn't matter? And like I also sometimes you I mean, listen, we're at the point where we go to drugstores and no shoes.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

We we come to that point, and I didn't, it was so early that I don't think anyone actually even saw me, but even if they did, no one noticed.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

I would have loved for you to run in. So like, I don't know. I'm trying to think of somebody.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

What happened to me?

Aging, CVS Mirrors, Awkward Encounters

SPEAKER_00 45:44

And you're like in your pajamas and no shoes.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

I'm pretty sure she listens, but Karen, our friend Karen, she um I one day, and I mean, I I I know everyone's like, oh, I'm sure you looked fine. No, no, I looked horrendous. No, we're gonna find it. I slept the night before. Um, I'm not really drinking now, but I had had like too much to drink the night before. It was just a random Tuesday. So I had too much to drink and I didn't sleep, and I'm still in pajama pants, flip-flops that were too small because they were one of my kids. And like it hurt that I spilled coffee on me in the car. And I'm going to my bank and I have to go inside. Oh my god. And it's by Publix. So I'm like, that's fine. I'll just park close to the bank. The bank people might kind of be like a little like concerned about me, but they it's fine. Smelling like yesterday's wine. Yeah, exactly. And I'm walking back out to my car and I hear my name.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

Oh no, and Karen always looks cute. Karen. Yeah. Bright eyed. And always looking good.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

Matching out jewelry on, glasses, makeup, hair down. And I mean, she was just so excited to see me. Of course. She was like, oh my God. And I was like, oh my god, Karen. Like, I was hoping I'm happy to see you, but I was really hoping not to see anyone. She's like, why? And I was like, I just like, you know, look at me. Like, I'm a mess. And she was like, oh, do you want to see my new car? So then I looked at her new car. And then later I like messaged her that I was happy to see her or something. And she was like, she's so nice. She's like, I remember having little kids, like, it's okay. And I'm thinking my kids aren't that little.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Well, but you still have a lot of children in the house. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

So it was like, and she didn't care at all. But it was just like, I'm almost in my car and I hear someone call me and I'm like, damn it.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

You know, one time my mom, this is so funny. I will never forget this story. I think I told this story before, but I'm just gonna say it again. She um was off work one day because she was a nurse, or she was going in later or something, and she had to take me to school and because I had to be there early or something. So she just like went and like she would sleep in like those night shirts, you know, they look like t-shirts, but they're like long, like yeah. So that's what she would sleep in, and like her granny panties, okay? So she's like, I'll just jump in the car and take you to school and come back. We've all been there. Oh, yeah. She locked herself out of the house. Oh, no, no, no, no. Plus, my mom had bangs her whole life. So what she would do, she would um like wear a velcro roller in her bangs until she was ready to get ready for the day and then take it out because then they'd be like, whatever. So she has her velcro roller, her nightshirt on, and slippers, probably. So what she had to do was climb our fence because she knew our back door was unlocked, but our fence, the only way you could climb it, I'm just envisioning this. I I wasn't there, but to hear her tell it was so funny. We had a like a wrought iron fence in the front. I don't know, it's kind of a weird design, but the house was built in the 70s, guys. And the in the side of the house where you could like open it and come into like this little courtyard thing. I mean, it was janky, but that was the only way you could do it because the other fence was shared with the neighbors. So, and you couldn't like climb, so she was like, I'm gonna have to climb this wrought iron fence with the whole neighborhood see me. So she had and we had a congressmanual who was crazy and was wigging out as my mom is like trying to climb.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

Oh my god. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Because it was locked, it had like a padlock on it, and so she got in, but uh, she told us later the story, and I was just crying, dying laughing, dying, laughing.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

That is so funny. Well, I don't know if I I'll tell this one too, and maybe I already have. Um, the time my husband and I went out to our hot tub on a Sunday morning, it was like 7 a.m. I'm not kidding.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

What in the hell are y'all doing at 7 a.m. in the hot tub?

SPEAKER_01 49:37

That's the thing. Y'all have weird. So weird. It was winter, it was like January. We got up. I think we had like why are y'all awake? The night before or something, and nobody else was up. So we're like, let's go to the hot tub.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

Y'all trying to get hot tub time at 7 a.m. That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

So we go out there, just in towels, get in. Y'all are naked, get in the hot tub naked. This is even funny. Nothing is happening, but we're sitting there naked in the hot tub. I did not get in my hot tub naked. I hear the gate open. So my first thought is like, Wait, who is this? And I'm like, Did you hear that? And Brent's like, maybe it's just the wind, because sometimes he's like, I'll make sure it's shut when we get out. Around the corner comes the pool guy on Sunday morning. Sunday at 7 a.m. And y'all are nude in the hot tub. This is amazing. I was like, Well, we can't get out. Like, our towels are like maybe a year ago. This is like a sitcom episode. Not near us. And the other problem is our dogs are outside. So they're like and you're like, we'll get him in a minute. And he's like, they're cool. And he's just got his little headphones on. He's clean. My one dog's like trying to like grab the net from him to like, because it's he thinks it's a stick. And we're like, we cannot move. So we literally just sat there until he was cleaning the pool.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Wait, he hasn't clean your hot tub? Oh, your hot tub's not attached to your pool. It's separate. Okay, here.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

And we've actually asked before and they don't clean it. So we have to do that on our own. But it's not, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then eventually he left and we were like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

That is so awkward.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

Is it that hilarious?

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Well, we can never go in our stuff naked because we have a walking path behind our house. Oh, and we have bushes and stuff up, but you can still but I wouldn't do that anyway because I don't want I don't need that. That is hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

It was really funny. It was really funny.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

I cannot believe y'all, it's 7 a.m. on a Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

I can't believe the pool guy came out.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

Well, that's also weird too, but dedication.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Oh, I think what had happened was it had stormed that week. Oh, yeah. So they come actually. Yeah. So they were probably trying to make up that day, and so they just started early. But either he didn't notice and really didn't care, or he noticed and he was like, Let me just get this done as fast as I possibly can.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

The funny thing is, he was probably like, Why are these fucking people staring at me? Can they please go inside and get collect your dogs? That would make me aggravated. That is so funny. That's worse than climbing a fence in your underwear.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

No, I think that's worse because a stranger could see your butt. Hello, a stranger could have seen both y'all's butts. Well, we didn't move. We just stayed under all the bubbles.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

I'm telling you, he knew y'all were nagging.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

I'm sure he did.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

He knew it.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

And then it's like, Thank God y'all weren't doing it. And I said, I said, Do you think we I said, should we tell him like we need to get out? Like around the corner, and Brandt's like, I don't know. So we just like sat there until he That's so funny. Awful. Anyway, getting an earful today. That is hilarious. So dead on the board.

Plot Nits And Final Verdict

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Kind of already talked about our thoughts on the book, but do you have any others you want to add in? I have a few. Obviously, the fat-shaming body dysmorphia stuff. Oh they have a sorority in high school. Oh yeah, that was weird. I thought that was weird.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

I mean, was that a thing? I don't think it was. I I mean, I I know there's clubs and stuff, but like sororities in high school, that's not yeah, it's kind of strange. That's weird.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Um yeah, I already said that the thing about Todd that like he's already like a crush and someone they're crushing on in the earlier books. Oh but they don't see that here. Oh, that we saw the uh we saw this on Dawson's too. Remember the pizza classroom prank where you order pizza? Oh yeah, well that was in Fast Times at Regemont High, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's like a very um popular thing. I just wrote it down because that was funny. I love that the that first of all, there's an anonymous gossip column in the school paper. School paper, yeah. And that is called the Eyes and Ears. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

And the funny thing is, like, nobody knows who writes it. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Right. Everybody would figure it out. Everybody knows, everybody knows. Okay, there was a part, and I don't know, it's a little bit subtle, I had to reread it, but where Jessica goes to walk home because she wants to feel better about herself because she knows people are gonna hit on her and catcall her. This was before she runs into Rick Andover who gives her a ride home. I don't remember that. There's like a line where she's like, she decided to walk home because she knew she'd be getting attention, but and I was like, that's gross. First of all, don't do that when women are walking. And also don't like make that sound like that's like people want that. Women shouldn't. Yeah, I don't like that. Um, and of course Rick Andover was creepy and predatory, but like you said, it was he was framed as a bad, yeah, bad guy.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

I mean, we can't speak for all women, but most women don't if they're just going about their life, they don't want to be catcalled.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

No, but they made it sound like you know, she just wanted it, she needed an attention boost. Gross. Yeah, gross. Um, so then Betsy Martin is the one they think that Steve's dating. Oh, right. But then it ends up being Alice Martin or something. Okay, what is this whole debacle with the football field? That plot point. I was like, what's it somebody they wanted to buy it and then it's like But like why? Why is this in the book?

SPEAKER_00 54:56

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 54:57

And then all the like football players like stand up against it, and so do the cheerleaders, but then Elizabeth's there too, writing about it for the paper.

SPEAKER_00 55:05

It was a weird plot edition that didn't seem to really go anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

For like a while.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Well, because it didn't it didn't it pull in the uh didn't it pull in the lady that they th that they thought the dad was having an affair with? They had to have some way some way to tie her in to show her working late and all that.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

Okay. But it I know it was very it was very odd. Um okay, so so Winston. Winston's the kind of dorky friend who ends up going to the dance with Elizabeth. Did you he notice the line he said about girl the girls that people set him up with? He said they're all they're usually around 250 pounds and they're bending down getting a cheeseburger or something. Yes. I was like, sir. Gross. You're not exactly like that isn't by beauty standards and popularity standards top of the food chain.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

But also, I don't like that whole I just God can we not comment on people's bodies and that there is a good body and a bad body. I cannot stand that.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

I know.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

Oh, I hate it. And I mean the 80s and before the 80s, 90s, and everything, it's still today, because we have made a huge pendulum swing backwards with body confidence and body acceptance. I mean, huge. It makes me so upset. But like it's like that whole trope that's in so many 80s and 90s movies, like, oh well, if you're in a bigger body, you're automatically not attractive. And then once you're not in it, now you're now you're acceptable.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

Correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:40

Gross.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

Gross. And so it's like not just the girls who are traditionally beautiful that you're going, oh gosh, I don't feel like that. Now there's literally a a young man saying that. Not about anyone specific. Yeah. Just like generally.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

And also making it seem like people in bigger bodies just always like eat a lot of food and like eat crappy food. Um that's not true. You can be in a bigger body and not be like shoveling cheeseburgers in your mouth.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Like I hate that. I hate that trope. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

I know. It made me so frustrated.

SPEAKER_00 57:12

It makes me so frustrated.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

And then I just wrote down the car chase where Rick steals the car, but then Todd gets in his datson and is like chasing it down. That was a lot, but again, that's very soap operay. I know. Like a very dramatic. And then like one man is like trying to steal them away, and another man comes to the rescue.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

Always the men saving everybody.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

Always. So this was uh that's all I have. This was this was I will not um be rereading anymore. Oh yeah, yeah, not the vibe. It was a whole vibe. And I think I I don't know if you noticed, but when we first announced the books we were doing, we did have some comments about this. Someone said, Oh no, not sweet belly high. And like even in person, people were like, Oh man, I don't know about those movies.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

But that's good because that's why we reread stuff. Because we I didn't remember, I mean, I knew it would be like something, but I didn't remember it being that much.

SPEAKER_01 58:07

So page one, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

Like I was like, as soon as I started reading, I was like, Oh my god, this is gonna be painful.

SPEAKER_01 58:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 58:17

And it was. I was like quick read.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

Make it through, make it through for the sake of the podcast. I know research.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

And I will say, I'm I'm halfway through Anna Green Gables, and it is not as painful as this. Still not my kind of book, but it's not as painful as this one.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

Right, right. We'll get we'll get there.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

We'll get there, we'll chat about that one.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

Look, we get space camp next week, which will be a fun little Well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

It could be problematic. I don't I haven't watched it since the 80s.

SPEAKER_01 58:45

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 58:46

I don't know. We'll find out.

SPEAKER_01 58:48

Yeah, I guess we'll find out.

What’s Next And How To Support

SPEAKER_01 58:50

So catch up on all of our Xenio Girl Summer rewatches and rereads. We did it last summer too. So if you're a new fan, head on back to 2025 Xennio Girl Summer and find some there, or any of our 220 plus episodes on all things 80s and 90s, and um a lot of them on Dawson's Creek, which we're about to record our last one. Oh, an end of an era. End of an era. Um, but thank you guys so much for listening. Please leave us a positive review wherever you're listening. Share us with your friends, uh, like us on YouTube, because now we gotta get to 150, even though that thing that I said earlier in the episode is probably not true.

SPEAKER_00 59:31

It took us so long to get to 100. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 59:35

But I feel like it's like that snowball effect. Like once you get rolling, it picks up steam.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

Katie's the eternal optimist. I am I am I am the realist. Oh boy. Well, if we get there, great.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

Yeah, love that for us. Nothing wrong with that. Thanks again, guys, for listening, and we'll see you next time here on Generation. Bye.