Dawson's Creek, S 6, E17 & E18: Sex And Violence (But Not Really)

We're in our feels about the gross male behavior in these episodes -- from CJ pressuring Jen into sex, to Pacey's gross colleagues. And in other topics: Gail gives Dawson some tough love about his career choices. 

We rewatched these episodes:

Season 6, Episode 17: Sex and Violence

Season 6, Episode 18: Love Bites

Watch Dawson's Creek with us on Hulu or Amazon Prime.

Episode Topics and Mentions:

Joey Potter
Pacey Witter
Dawson Leery
Doug Witter
Jack McPhee
Jen Lindley
Audrey Liddell
Katie (host)
Brooke (host)

Leave us a glowing review wherever you listen to podcasts, and connect with Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast at all the places below:

Patreon

TikTok

Instagram

Facebook

Email us at generationinbetweenpodcast@gmail.com

Request an episode topic here

Transcript

Eddie’s Return Joke And Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I wrote, Eddie is back and gone already, but then he was back again. He wasn't in the red vest. He was coming back. So are we sure that it's him?

Season 6 Rewatch Begins

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Hi everyone. Welcome back to our Dawson's Creek Rewatch. We are on season six, the final season, getting close to the end. Okay, we're gonna talk about two episodes. We're gonna start with episode 17 called Sex and Violence. And here's a summary. As Joey is drafted to fill in as Pacey's assistant, Dawson is tempted with an offer to make a film he doesn't really believe in. Okay, so before we start recording, we're getting spun up talking about some gross stuff that men get away with. This whole episode to me pissed me off.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Yep. It's crazy. I'm sure that's what had it top of our mind too. Like no, it's not. But well, first of all, when I saw the title Sex and Violence, I was actually a little worried. I was like, wait, what's gonna happen in this episode? Remember that Bush song? No sex and violence. That makes more sense. But um, yeah, so the men in this episode, all of them horrible. I'm just I was pissed.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

They were all time. All right, well, let's just get into

Sex And Violence Sparks Anger

SPEAKER_00 1:10

it. Let's get into it. First of all, the beginning with this awkward moment with Pacey and Joey, like I was like, Why are they being so awkward? They've literally slept together.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Yeah, they were being kind of awkward. Although I kind of remember being like that when you're first, although it's Pacey and Joey, but when you're first dating someone.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Yeah, but my point is you don't have to have that because you already have like seen each other naked.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

And they were on a boat for a whole summer, remember?

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yeah. But they didn't have sex then, remember? Oh, right. But still, they have in their life, yeah. Yeah, and I did say that they're very cute. Uh you know, just the two of them together. They're very cute. And then I loved Jen's cute PJs in her hair. I had those pajamas. Did you?

SPEAKER_00 1:51

I as soon as she from I had those in college. I don't remember. They were really cute. But I had those sheet pajamas. Aww. They were really cute. Okay. Oh, and that scene. Yeah. Fucking fucking CJ. Oh, CJ is so annoying annoying. He's like, oh my god, we haven't had sex in a whole week. Oh, cry me or CJ. Yeah. Why don't you want me? Blee blee blee. And then Jen's like, what am I? Sex on a stick. Then he she was like, There's other ways of being intimate than having sex. He's like, okay, and like pulls a sheet back and she goes to like snuggle him. I'm like, gross. He was like, come on down here, lady. Yeah. Gross.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

That was gross. Yeah, I didn't love, and then I didn't love his like justification. He's like, Well, you'll just like sleep with anyone, but now I actually treat you well and you won't sleep with me. He's like, Why do they reap all the benefits? Fuck you. That should have been a goodbye. Yeah. And I mean, sorry. Jen was mad about it, but then they quickly made up later. Remember how quick their makeup was?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

And their whole makeup happened with Graham leading the Graham's leading the discussion. Yeah. No, absolutely not. You're not gonna sit there over dinner with your grandma and let her be talking to y'all about your sex life. Right. Right. That's ridiculous. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

That was

CJ’s Entitlement And Jen’s Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 3:10

that was a lot. Um, what did I say? Joey working there. Oh, she's the assistant. Right. So we already know that the men that Pacey works with are kind of douchebags. Oh, yeah, misogynist assholes. They are just in there to it's mostly men that work there, and they fire Pacey's assistant, supposedly, probably because she was too old, is what Joey said. Right. And not as like, I mean, I thought she was perfectly attractive, but you know what I mean. Like not the standard that maybe these men wanted in their office. And of course, they found Joey. She's young and attractive and smart, and they were all swarming around her, which was really gross, which Pacey did point out, but still, but then he was gross too.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Yeah. He's like, Oh, I don't know. I just I don't know. He was being gross. I okay. Speaking of gross people in the workplace, Dawson in that movie, exec, who was disgusting. And the girl, the lady that works for him is complicit. She's like, listen, it just is what he like, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

You know, put more sex in it. He's a horny guy. That's what she said. She's just a let me tell you something about him. He's a horny guy.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

It's fine. And then Dawson's like, sorry, it must be hard to work in that kind of environment. She goes, You've been staring at the twins all morning. And I'm like, so then I don't know. I just it this whole episode made me so pissed at men.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Yeah, it made me mad. And and it, and every time I thought maybe they were trying to make a point with it, then there's that line about like Dawson staring at her. It almost made her feel it almost made her feel like um a character who who isn't offended by men and that we should all feel that way. Like we should men be men. Yeah. That's basically like, oh, just let men be men. That's swear at it. And I mean, in the end, Dawson doesn't like make the well, he doesn't make the changes to his film that they suggest, which include like the nudity and the sex stuff and all that stuff. Um, they they still take the idea and like run with it on their own. So I guess we're supposed to feel kind of good about that, that he sort of stuck to his principles on it, but it's almost like, well, that's sort of disheartening. Yeah. Yeah. And then, oh, and then the director, or not the director, the exec, gives Dawson credit for Natasha. Like he's like, Oh, and Natasha, and Dawson's like, Yeah, you know, I think that was really one of her best performances. I was glad I was able to like help her through that. Oh, no, I mean because you like you got her in the sack. Yeah. That's what he said. Yeah. It is kind of giving. I mean, I hate to even say it, but like Epstein and like his person who was complicit. I don't hate to say that. Like, and those things were happening at that time that this episode was made.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Listen, this has been happening since the beginning of time. We were just talking about this. Men get away with gross stuff, and it makes me mad. It makes me so mad because, like, for instance, hit the girl that worked for him becomes complicit in the very stuff that's harming her. Correct. Right. So, because she's just like, well, that's just how it is. And that is so frustrating because we've all been in places in in the workplace and just in life

Joey At Work And Office Misogyny

SPEAKER_00 6:15

where you're like, Well, I just have to accept this because that's just how the world is. And all that does is just feed into the problem more. Yes. And lets men continue to be disgusting. And like, I I wrote down this whole entire episode is full of misogynistic, toxic, masculine bullshit. Cause it was. It really was. And there was no points proven to make it better.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Is this the one where they go to the dancers at the next one? Okay, because there were some in there too. Oh, yeah. Right? It carried over. It carried over. Uh, I said I said lots of gross men in this episode. Just like a random comment. Um, and then I said, I realized I missed Oliver, the director. Oh, when Dawson goes to like talk to him. But even then, I know him. I know. That's why I was like shocked. I was like, oh, I had like a smile on my face. But even then he's gross. He's but then he was gross. He's like, this know nothing that I'm trying to hook up with. I just need five minutes. And she's like, What? Wow, thanks for that, though. She said five minutes, yippee. Thanks. She's like, I'm in the band. Like, yeah. So even he was gross. But just like seeing him, I was like, Yay. But then I was like, no. No. Um, oh, and then when Joey and Pacey are arguing. Now I will say, I did tend to agree with Pacey when he was like, I don't think you should be my assistant. Not because she wasn't just like living up to the standards, but he was like, I'm having trouble like doing my job with you here, which lots of couples can probably show you. Yeah. So I think that was correct in what he was saying. But then it's like they get in this argument about it and then they just like start making out. Right. On the couch in his office. Yeah. And did his boss not know that was kind of his girlfriend? Well, I think he did. Because he comes in and he's like, Oh, that was faster than it took me with my assistant, or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

I don't know. I thought that was weird. But anyway, and this episode had no Jack or Emma or Audrey. Yeah. They they've been doing that a lot this season, though, where they kind of take two or three storylines, although the Joey and Pacy keem seems to keep happening. And we already know Busy Phillips ain't in the finale. Yeah. So we're getting geez, is she in any more?

SPEAKER_00 8:27

I don't know. There's only a couple left. I I don't know. I hope so. I don't know. Okay, I hate that. Let's move on. Okay. Season six, episode 18, is called Love Bites. Here's a summary. As Eddie's unexpected return throws Joey for a loop, Dawson returns home to complete his script. Okay. Let's talk about Dawson just expecting to live at home for free. Yeah. While he pursues his dreams. I gotta say, I get it, but I was with Gail. I was

Dawson’s Sleazy Exec And Complicity

SPEAKER_00 8:55

like, you have to have a backup plan. You I mean, follow your dreams, but I mean, you know this. Yeah. You worked two fucking jobs at the same time. Yeah. Like you have to provide for yourself as the same time as pursuing your dreams. I mean, anybody who is big in the world now, like uh any director, had to go through shit and work jobs to make money. Like, that's just to support your life. You can't expect your mom to just support your ass while you're out there just trying your best to write. I had I was with her.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

I mean, you have to be practical. That was one of the things I wanted to ask. I said, Do you agree with Dawson's mom? I mean, yes, but I also feel like when be part of the reason I have had to work two jobs to like follow my dream now is because I didn't feel like I could have done it when I was younger. So if you are in the position to help your kids a little more to do those things, because it is harder to get there when you also are working other jobs and doing other things. Sure, but you have to have a plan.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

His plan was move home for free and just work do my art. And maybe there's like an in-between. Like I'm just like, I don't know. I don't know life is not about only having a good time living your dreams. Sure. That is part of it. As a functioning member of society as an adult, you have to provide for yourself. Now, granted, once you're in a partnership, whatever, like obviously I work part-time, Troy works full-time. So, but I'm saying we have a partnership where I do other things that he that he does not do. Do you know what I'm saying? Because it's it

Love Bites And Dawson Moves Home

SPEAKER_00 10:42

all evens out.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Right. You're not just doing your dream while he's doing all the other things.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Right. Yeah. But when you are a young adult like Dawson, you you didn't you can't just rely on your parents to continue to care for you. Like if my kid was like, I'm dropping out of FSU, I'm moving back home, I'd be like, great, but you're gonna start paying rent. Like, like you can't, you're gonna contribute to bills. Like, you can't just be 20 years old living in my house for free when you are a con. If there was something wrong or something's going on, that's horrors. I'm not talking about like physically or mental health correctly. If there is a situation where you can't physically be doing those things, then that's one thing. But like, I mean, I don't know. I I'm with her. Like, yes, dream your dreams, pursue your dreams, all the things, but you also have to be realistic. You do. I mean, you know, like while you were building your studio, you're like, well, I have to keep this other job at this, I have to. Right. Like that's just being an adult, and it sucks. Yeah. But that's just the way life be.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I I just felt like she was a little too heavy-handed on it when she doesn't really need to be. She's got a comfortable life, and I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Right. And he has gone out and done a lot of that's teaching him anything. I think it's just like, oh, you're 20 years old. Yeah, sure, come live at home for free, do nothing while you just create art. That's just not reality. Like, you have to and he, but I I will say he did say to her, Well, I can take care of Lily and be the nan, like you're already paying somebody else. Yeah. So that to me, okay, yeah, that's a part-time job. That's money saved probably. Actually, it's probably a full-time job because she works full-time still. Right. So Right. That's money you're spending anyway. Right. Right? Like she's spending anyway for her to be able to continue her job. So that would make sense. Also, like, okay, maybe what she should have been like, you want to live here, then you have to pay bills, like pay rent. I don't think she it's not, it's not either one way or the other, I guess. It's not like no, never pursue your dreams, only have a job. But I think she had a point with a backup plan. Like, you have to have a way to provide for yourself as an adult. Sure. You can't just hope something is gonna work out. That's true. Uh, you have to have an in-between plan.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

And it is interesting because the people that you meet along the way on that, which aren't necessarily I'm talking about artistic pursuits specifically right here, but you could apply this really anywhere. You know, the people I've met at my jobs that weren't necessarily artistic jobs or performing jobs, you know, really do help your path too. Oh yeah. And I always say, like, some of the things I write now, I are being written in a better way than I could have done when I was 22 or 23. Because just living life brings you so much more depth to how you talk about things and how you approach things. And I'll probably feel 30 years from now, even more like, oh wow, if I revisited that thing I wrote, I would probably add this, this, or this, or say it a little differently. Um, so yeah, yeah, I don't know. It's it, I just I mean, I think it ended up being okay. Oh, yeah. It was a good, like, it was a good reality check for him to sort of be like, it can't, it can't always just be the the fallback, the backup plan that you actually have to take some control of what your life's gonna be, even in moments that that you aren't sure where it's going next.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Well, and you do have to be realistic, like you're an adult, and like the reality of being an adult is you have to make money to support yourself. Yeah. 100%. You know.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Well, I wrote Eddie is back and gone already, but then he was back again.

Adult Dreams Versus Paying Bills

SPEAKER_01 14:28

He wasn't in the red vest, he's coming back. So are we sure that it's him? What do you mean? Because you know, it was red vest on. I was just trying to make a joke. Obviously, I didn't pick it up.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Obviously, my delivery was not correct. Of that I get no, it was me. It was me. Um, it was me. I I'm not I'm not thrilled he's back. He just keeps coming and out. And then speaking of that, Joey, why are you always so fickle? I know. She just be looking at that board of pictures with all they're all there. They're all there.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Which one am I gonna pick this time? Ooh, I don't know. Yeah. And we should have known when they zoom in on the one with Eddie, right? It's like you see Dawson, you see Pacey.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

And like, I just it's to me, her and him are not as believable as her and Pacey. I agree. I agree with that a hundred percent. Just doesn't feel like their relationship was not developed enough. All of a sudden he was like, I love you, Joey. I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah, we do, but I'm also gonna move to California. And then I'm back to the back. And now I'm back because I love you.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Yeah. And I need you.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Yes. So what about? I mean, obviously, we learn something sad about Grams later in the episode. But the comment about how that that one who's it, the uncle or something. Whoever that guy is, Bill, I think was his name, Bill, is heartbroken because she's kind of like not dating him anymore. And he can't even watch Wheel of Fortune because Vanna White reminds him of Graham. That was that's one of the last I thought that was really cute though. I was like, wow. And then we find out that Grams is kind of pushing people away because she's sick.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Um, which oh that scene in the kitchen uh where they're both crying. She's make angrily making a pie. Yes. Also, I understand that because I love to bake treats, and when I'm stressed, I'm an emotional eater. So I get it, Grams, with the pie. I get it. I totally get it. Yeah. And then Graham's is like, I'm not ready to die yet. And I'm like, oh God. We're also not ready for each other. I don't know. It was just so oh anyway. I thought it was Ross. Speaking of crying, the girl crying in the bathroom at a school dance. Yes. Who has not been there? Yep. And Joey says that.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

She's like, sorry, it's a rite of passage because boys suck. Yes. And there was more of the toxic stuff in this one. Boys fighting each other. But then Pacey showing the boy how to fight better, also in the bathroom. That was like the follow-up. It's like, what? And that kid is a jerk, uh creep. I'm sorry. He's awful. The one that's dating or sort of dating um the younger, what is her name? The professor's daughter, Hayley. I think it's Haley. Um, and so she says to Joey in the bathroom, which is really funny to me because they're not that far apart in age. I know. And she's like, No offense, but like, I hope my high school experience isn't like you or whatever, you know. It was just really funny. And then she kind of says something about what Joey's wearing, but they're really wearing something relatively similar. I was like, it's not almost the exact same outfit. I thought that was really funny. Um I said Graham's pouting like a teenager. That was before they had the conversation about her being sick, and and Jen's like joking with her, and she's like, Oh, what's going on with this and that? And then Graham just kind of storms out. Um and then, okay, so Joey and Pacey are at the dance, and then just suddenly, is it because she had the talk with Haley in the bathroom? Suddenly Joey's like, you know what? I actually don't like you now to to Pacey at the dance. I mean, kinda. So she talked to Haley and like had the realization, I guess. And then she comes out and she's like, actually, this I think she even said this is this isn't working

Eddie Returns And Joey Wavers

SPEAKER_01 18:05

for me. Yeah. And I was like, Oh, okay. And then when he kind of keeps pushing her on it because he's surprised, it does feel like it came out of nowhere. She's like, Eddie's back. And he was like, Okay, great. I was like, Okay. I mean, I guess that is a way to get a person to like to get your message through, basically saying, I care about somebody else. There's somebody else. And then she goes to Eddie's house. And so I guess now they're back together. I don't know. I'm very confused. I don't like it. But at the end of the series, don't her and Dawson get together, or am I misremembering her and Pacey do? Okay. Yeah. What is happening? Because see, I thought that if it was her and Pacey, this was it. Well, we're on 18 and this. We'll find out. What if I remembered incorrectly? It's possible. I can't imagine she'd end up with Eddie. No, no, no. He's no, he's he's just like uh No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

Jack and Doug end up together.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

You did tell me that, so that's gotta come back into play somewhere. I know. Well, did you say the last episode is in the future?

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Okay, that's what you told me. They're adults. It's like 10 years later or something, or maybe not even 10.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

I don't remember the time frame, but yeah. It's in the future, and they all come back together for something. Got it.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

You're not gonna say what. Don't tell me. Nope. Um, okay. All right. Well, we're getting there. Sad though. All th Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

So

Grams’ Illness And The Dance Fallout

SPEAKER_00 19:25

is the entire last episode in the future? I think so. Okay. All right. If I remember, I don't know. I I remember the last episode in the future, and it's sad.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Was it a do you remember it being a good episode? Were you like satisfied with how it ended? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Oh, that's good. I was sad, but it was good. I figured like we we finish it and then I think we should have a week where we re-listen to the first one. Oh. And just discuss or either like replay it or something. Because it's it's been a journey. It's been over a year and a half that we've been doing just that. I know. That's so funny. Along with our episodes, but like focused on that. I'm ready, I'm ready for something new though. I am too. And I guess it gets that way anytime a show is wrapping up, even if you're just watching it, right? I know. It's like you're you're sad, but you're also like, unless it's something like we're gonna talk about freaks and geeks, that was too short. Yeah. But for something like this, that's you know, six seasons.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

That's well, and we started off just one episode a week. And then we're I was like, oh, we gotta do two. Yeah, because it was taking us years.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Literal years. It already did take us years. So more years than that. But

Finale Talk And Farewell

SPEAKER_01 20:35

awesome. All right, well, stick with us to the for the end of Dawson's Creek the series, and make sure you're listening to our movie. Um, I guess it's just our series of hundreds of episodes, don't worry. And um, then we'll see you back here again on Generation in Between. Bye. Bye guys.