Dawson's Creek S5, E15 & E16: Joey Gets Mugged & Pacey Visits a Gay Bar

Episodes 15 & 16 of Season 5 of Dawson's Creek contain a lot of action, starting with a Joey-only episode that involves a weird encounter with a mugger (who dies). Pacey grabs a beer with Jack at a gay bar, as Pacey and Audrey try to figure out if they should keep exploring their connection. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hello and welcome back to Generation in Between, our Dawson's Creek rewatch. We are currently on season five, episode 15. We're just gonna jump right in, y'all. Um, hopefully you have listened listens to our James Vanderbeek tribute episode that is in our regular episode feed. So if you haven't, check it out. Um, but let's jump right in. So this episode was called Downtown Crossing. Uh, and the summary is this they basically tell you what the whole episode I the summary is annoying. Joey helps a mugger who robbed her just before he was hit by a car. So I was like, well, now I know this fucker's gonna get hit by a car. I know. And I know she's about to get mugged, and then that don't even happen for like anyway.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Yeah, yeah. It really tells you everything. It could have been more mysterious. It could have been like Joey encounters danger and has to make personal choices. Hello. Something like every other summary.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

I hate it. I hate it when episode summaries tell you stuff that ruins it.

Joey’s Solo Episode Controversy

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Yeah. I agree. I agree. So if you listen to our last episode, I said, why is there a to be continued from episode 14? Because it's literally just Joey walking down the street. Right. Well, I guess we very quickly figure out why in this one, because she is again walking alone in the middle of the night in Boston. And there's nobody around. Literally nobody's badly. I feel like it's and it's not Capeside. Capeside to have like nobody, sure. But Boston?

SPEAKER_01 1:30

And it's a weekend, right? I thought so. I thought so too.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

And this was an interesting one because Joey was the only character in the whole episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Well, the only Dawson's Creek girl. Yeah. And then like the other tertiary people, but there was no Dawson, there was no Jen, there was no Jack, there was nobody at no Pacey, nobody else but her. And um, I looked something up on that because I was like, why is Joey alone? Like, because I was just curious. So this is weird. We haven't seen this yet. Yeah. And it just said it was um pivotal to her character development in season five. Okay, no. So whatever happens next, I don't know. Because we watched the episode after this, and I don't think it was very pivotal to that.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

I just said, like, I don't have hardly any notes on this episode because I didn't like it. At the end, I wrote, I hated it. What was the point? Like, it there's no point. It was it was weird, it was sad, and it was unnecessary, and it made me irritated. She gave the money back at the end.

The Mugging And Street Logic

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Me too. I was so fucking pissed. Um, so you we could go back and listen to the tape, right? Of how many times have I said, Why is Joey walking home alone? Uh-in in the past, like, I don't know, 10 episodes or whatever this season. They're in New York, she's walking by herself in the middle of the night. They're in somewhere else. She's always out here walking around by herself. Always. They leave her with the one guy at the bar or the nightclub, whatever that was. And I'm like, why did they leave Joey? And I'm like, I have been saying Joey shouldn't walk home alone. Yeah. I have been saying this.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

So frustrating. Is it yours? Yeah, just ignore it. Okay, I will. Probably a group text. Oh, probably. Um I should put it on do not disturb, but I'm panicked too. You know this. Yeah. Because what are you panicked about? Because last time I did that, my kid did need something important. Like there was like a lockdown at school.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

One or two really quick, and I'll keep talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

No, because it'll ring. It'll ring. Oh, it'll ring. Oh. And the last ring was my other kid, but he was just calling to tell me how bad his chemistry class is. It's fine. He'll be okay. Okay. So the first thing I wrote was okay, what the fuck is this weirdness? Joey is not freaking out. Like, did you know she did not freak out this whole mugging process? No. And then the drug dealer starts asking for marriage advice and like life. What is happening? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

It was really weird. And I said, this is very random, but the mugger, drug dealer guy, his voice sounded like Pacey a little. Because I look down to like write something, and in my head, I'm like, oh, Pacey's here now. Because I thought it was weird. And no, it was him. Yeah. And their voices were very similar.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

And they have like he's lying there dying in the street, he gets hit by a car, and they're having a heart to heart. I'm like, bitch, get the fuck out of there.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Be like, thank God.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Run down the street where you can see him. If like if you're worried about leaving him, I get it. Like it's a human life. I get it. Get your fucking phone and your money. Run. And he's like, I'm gonna shoot you, or whatever. You could probably outrun it.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Especially if he just got hit by a car.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

His shot's gonna be pretty shitty. Then you call and keep an eye and wait and make sure. No. There was just so many.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Also, don't fight a mugger who wants your money and has a gun.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Uh that. That's one of the first things you learn in self-defense.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Pushing back against him. I mean, I get kind of trying to lie. She's like, Oh, I don't really have any money. Like, I kind of get that. But she's like aggressively like pushing back against this man with a gun. I know. Like, no, no, give him your money, girl. Give him your coat, give him your phone. Whatever you gotta do to get this person out of here.

unknown 5:01

Yeah.

Hospital Ethics And The Lie

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Terrible, horrible. It was scary. I don't know. That's and plus, I don't like that that this like plays into every woman's fear. Like you're alone on the street and a man attacks you. Like that plays into every woman's fear. It's so scary. Um, and I'm but like she did not seem freaked out. And she's like, they're like having banter and shit. I'm like, what? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

And he was so weird, like his like, I don't know, he's like, oh, I like you. I don't know. It's just really strange. She was really strange. It was like they were trying to make him likable.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah. Well, and also too, like, generally, if I mean like I know, but don't you think if somebody is mugging a person, they want to get out of there as soon as they fucking can once they get what they want?

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Because you don't want to linger.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Yeah. Someone else could come by. There's cameras by those ATMs, even back then, like there would have been a camera in the machine itself, probably.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

I don't know. I might be wrong, but I feel like from true crime stuff I've listened to by that time they were looking at ATM footage.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Um, this is totally not about mugging. But do you remember the friends um episode with the ATM vestibule?

SPEAKER_02 6:12

No.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

And um, I can't remember the model now, but Chandler gets locked in the ATM vestibule with a model. Oh my god. And he's like, I am locked. He calls somebody, he's like, I'm locked in an ATM vestibule with Jill Goodacre or something. I don't know if that's her, but he gets like locked in there with like a model. Oh my god. Because they get stuck. And every time I hear the words ATM vestibule, I hear Chandler saying that.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

Oh my god, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah, it's oh yeah. But I think that's why they quit having those, right? Because they were so dangerous.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yeah, it was almost it was more dangerous than being out on the street, yeah, to be inside those, yeah. Um, and then after the mugger's in the hospital, the doctor tells Joey to go talk to him. Yeah, that what the fuck is that? The doctor's like, and she's like, Oh, his his wife's leaving, and if you want to grab her, he'd like to talk to you if you can go talk to him. I'd be like, Hell fucking no, I'm not going to talk to him, doctor. Excuse me, sir. What? And she goes in and talks to him.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Yeah, it was so dumb. And then she tells him this whole story about her dad, and then he dies.

Addiction, Accountability, And Amends

SPEAKER_02 7:14

And look, how is she has Joey has all the the trauma surrounding all of that? I know. Why we get her more? It wasn't written well. No. Like her kind of correlating him to who her dad was, and then she lies to the little girl at the end. She's like, Your dad saved my life. I'm like, what purpose does that serve? Yeah, I did not like it.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

You have something in your eye pocket again?

SPEAKER_02 7:37

I don't even have white nail polish. You guys are lizards. Well, you got teary. So I think you when you wiped your eye.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

I'm sure. It might be a eye, a cry boogie. It is probably. You know when you get those cry boogies? Yeah. Yeah. I don't mean just you, I mean everybody.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

You know, Katie, those things that happen only to you already.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

You know, you get crybooggies. Like when you when you get teary and then you wipe your eye and the eye boogies.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

And they kind of just go wherever, yeah. So poor Katie with the crybooggies. I know. I was so upset. I know. Well, you read a very sad quote. That was very hard. That's what happened. It was the quote that got me. I know. Yeah, it was. I know. It's hard. Um, oh, and I did I did say, should Joey have lied about the dad to the daughter? She didn't have to say fucking shit. She didn't have to say anything. She didn't have to be like, he's an asshole. She'd just be like, I'm so sorry if you lost it. That's it.

Shifting To S5E16 Summary

SPEAKER_01 8:23

But don't lie. Like, your dad did some shitty stuff. Don't like, well, you know, I don't like lies anyway. Like, I don't, I don't like, I don't like misinformation. I don't like painting a prettier picture than is reality. And I don't think that's unfair. And then sh her little girl's like, Daddy was a hero. What? Yeah. He literally was like hurt this girl. Like that he assaulted this woman and stole her money. And admitted that he spent his daughter's daycare credit or whatever drugs. Now listen, I have lots of people that I love and care about that are uh former addicts. And well, I guess you're always an addict, but have been in recovery for a very long time. And it's not like that doesn't that piece of your life alone does not make you a bad person. Makes you make bad choices a lot of time, but also the things you do while under the influence and heavy in your addiction are not excusable. They're still your faults, they're still your actions. That is the consequence of the addiction, of course. And so, but part of the 12 steps is having to make amends for the things you do because you have to acknowledge what I did caused harm, even though I was not fully myself.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

I still did it.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

I take responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

That.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

So her telling her kid, like the kid, like, oh my dad's a hero. Well, that just means he never had to take responsibility, even in his death. Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

That's so true. I hadn't thought of it that way, but that's so true. And I was just thinking, Joey, what if someone had said that to you as a kid and later you found out it wasn't true? Yeah. You'd be annoyed. You'd be pissed. You'd feel lost. You'd be like, Well, you'd feel lied to, which is what you were. Right. Right. And that I didn't I didn't love the mom character either. She seemed like off to me. I've seen her in something else. Me too. But I didn't even look at it. I'd like her. I couldn't place her. I was too annoyed with this. And the little girl was adorable. Of course. Don't get don't get me wrong. But like, I still don't quite understand why they decided to have this story about Joey. And maybe we'll know as the season goes on more. But I don't believe they do this for any other character. I don't know. So why did they do this for her? And for what? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Well, let's move on to the next one. Okay. I didn't like the next one either. Okie dokie. These two episodes were not that great, I don't think. And we'll get there. So season five, episode 16. Excuse me. Is called In a Lonely Place. Here's a summary. As Joey is forced to face up to her feelings for Professor Wilder, Jen and Pacey get some unexpected advice on romance from a pair of touring musicians. Jen and Pacey, that's not right.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

That's not right. It would have been Jen and Audrey. Jen and Audrey. Yeah.

Pacey At The Gay Bar

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Oh, look at that typo in the uh Hulu. Anyway, it was Jen and Audrey get get advice. Okay. So let's start with the first thing that annoyed me. Okay. And I want to hear your thoughts on this. Pacey being like the the token straight guy in a in a gay bar. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It felt not. I felt what did I write? I said, why did this feel weird and wrong to me that they made this whole joke about a gay bar? I don't know. Not that straight people can't go to gay bars.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

No, he wasn't. But then he kind of was. Because he wanted to be make it clear he wasn't them.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

But he didn't. He lied about it.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Which I don't like.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

No, I don't like that either.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Because then you're trivializing real relationships.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Correct. It kind of reminded me in Rent when Mark shows up to the support group. And he's like, Oh, I'm not, I'm not. Oh, I mean, Mark, my name's Mark. It kind of reminded me of that where he's like, I'm I'm not gay. I'm don't have HIV, like, whatever. It sort of reminded me of that in a way, like that instant reaction. But you're right. But then he he lied and pretended Jack was his boyfriend. But then the writer guy was like, Well, if you ever break up, call me, which is weird.

Audrey, Karma, And Chemistry

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Which okay, it was cringy to me because instead of just being honest with the guy he was talking to, because he didn't, which I also thought was dumb. Like, okay, you didn't understand that this man was probably like wanting to hit on you in a gay bar. Like, I mean, you're not that, like, you're not that dense to be aware of another person. And so then, like, he's like, Oh, I've been talking to this guy, and he's like, Oh, well, now I've just felt like how women feel, and I thought that was cringe, yeah. And then he was like, Instead of, once he realized that was happening, because Jack was like, he totally wants to hook up with you, and he's like, You have to tell him, he didn't, and I thought that was gross because then he just they because then the guy thought that they were dating him and Jack, and he's like, Oh, yeah, we're together. And I'm like, instead of just telling the truth, you're gonna put on somebody's sexuality as like a costume, which is to get out of this situation because you can't be because you were being stupid and you wanted this man to come to your restaurant because he was like a restaurant reviewer. You wanted to use this to your advantage, and you couldn't be honest about it. That it just was all cringe to me.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

I didn't like any of it. I don't like it. I didn't like it either. I did not, and one thing I did like, Jen's hair is really good in this episode. It's always good. She's got no hair you're right. It's like longer all of a sudden, and like super platinum now, and like straight. Oh, it looked so good.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

She just has good hair.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

What did you think about Audrey thinking that okay? So, first of all, we find out that her and Pacey had sex in the car.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Oh, was it in the car? I thought they went back to his house.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

She says or both. She says we had sex in your car. Oh, because I was like, I was like, oh, they did. Okay. And um, so now she thinks the universe is trying to tell them they shouldn't be hooking up because that's the same night something happened to Joey. What do you think about them?

SPEAKER_01 14:36

I don't know. I mean, I feel well, well, Audrey's kind of woo-woo, and I think they, you know, she reads too much into not too much, she reads a lot into things. So I could see where her brain would get that from. Because she said Joey tried to call me and I wasn't there because we were doing this, and Placey's her ex-boyfriend. I could see the connection she was making. Because I feel like we all try and do that, even if it's like, oh, well, the universe just provided this for me. Oh, it's meant to be, or it's not meant to be. Not that it's wrong, right? But I could see the thought process.

Can Men And Women Be Just Friends

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Yeah, I could too. And she says it's a karmic thing. And then um, when Pacey's like, well, that's fine, we don't have to do all that. We can just like hang out, and she's like, I don't want to go through this platonic torture test. I loved that. I was like, if that isn't a summary of this entire show all about, of the whole show, platonic torture test.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

The whole show. She's like, No, no, I would rather not see you at all. You know what is funny though? I had this kind speaking of platonic, I had the funniest conversation um with my best friend this week. Well, we we talked nonstop, and we were talking about um, I don't even remember how we got caught on it. Because she said something about texting a like her husband was texting a mutual friend of theirs that they have a group chat with. It's like another couple, another husband and wife couple. And she's like, Oh, he texted her, blah, blah, blah. And she's like said something about like I wouldn't care if he texted her separately, but she, the friend, gets very like clutching, yeah, like like clutching pearls about it. And so we started talking about that, and I said, Do you well don't you think that like people can have platonic relationships? Absolutely. Like, I can think of plenty of straight men that I am friends with that I am zero percent attracted to.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Okay, I say plenty, like I have so many unattractive straight men. I don't mean they're unattractive.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

I don't mean they're unattractive. I mean I am not attracted to them. Right, because they're your friends, because you can have friendships and relationships that can be, and I feel like when Harry met Sally kind of fucked that up for people. I hate that movie. I know. I really dislike because they make it seem like like I'm just talking from like a a straight man and a straight woman point of view. They make it seem like that that kind of friendship can never happen. And I can I remember the first time I had a really good friend um when I was a teenager who who was a male, who was a straight male, and I'm a straight female, and like we were not attracted to each other at all. We were really good friends and we were young teens. He was like a year younger than me, and we were just good friends, and people always would ask us if we were dating, and it was so annoying. It is annoying because we were just friends, yeah. And it's like I think that's funny, and you know, like I I just think we anyway, not that I mean, obviously, Audrey and Pacey are attracted to each other, but that doesn't mean they had they had to be, they could have just been they could have stayed as friends that had good banter and worked together.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

I mean Jen and Pacey being together.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Jen and Pacey tried to be a they tried to make themselves attracted to each other and they couldn't do it, they couldn't do it, and they still get together and have fun and are part of the crew, and yeah. I just it annoys me, and and and like I get annoyed when couples out there, especially if you've been in a long-term relationship for a long time, if you can't trust your spouse to have friendships with somebody that is well, whatever your your sexual identity is, if you can't trust them, then then something going on there. That something is like I have a friend, I we have um a couple friends, uh a man and wife that live down the street from us that we are friends with. And Troy and the wife, because the husband and I were doing an event together, they went together, they had a drink together, then they came to the thing. That's happened a couple times. Did I be up in arms? No, because they are not attracted to each other, not at all. They are married people. And listen, if Troy's gonna walk out on me, I think he'd be smart enough not to do it with my friend.

Professor Wilder Whiplash

SPEAKER_02 18:49

You would think so. And also, like, you can't control what other you know, like if you're trying to control those things, like you said, there's something else wrong then. Right. Maybe they are attracted to each other and you're picking up on it, or something's wrong in your relationship that you would fear that that could be the case. And and I mean, people have different levels of jealousy, I guess, or different dynamics in their relationships. But look, I'm a jealous person. You are, and you're saying it. So I'm just saying, okay. I had read something, this is years ago, and it was it was someone had posted, and it was a woman who had posted a married woman, and she's an acquaintance of mine, and it was basically saying that like if you're at the grocery store and um someone flirts with you, it said a man, but like anyone flirts with you, and you like flirt back or feel good about it on the ride home, that's wrong. And I was thinking that would make me feel good in a very safe way, right? So I'd be like, wow, that person like made me feel good about myself, and I don't know who they are, and I'm never gonna talk to them again. I would not even know how to flirt back. Like, I don't know, it just made me like why would you feel bad about that?

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

I mean, I don't get it.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

I will say church also is like runs that into your brain like crazy. I will say a lot of Christian denominations be like men and women cannot. If you're going to talk to another man, there has to be your husband has to be present. Yeah, it's so fucking toxic.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Yeah, and it is toxic.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

I mean, it's toxic because that that only just leads to you mistrust continuing to mistrust humans and cycle of mistrust, yeah. And I mean, I and I also think it's very sad to to limit your friendships. It's very sad to limit somebody who could be a really great friend to you. Sure. And you're saying, Well, sorry.

Dawson And Jen’s Spark Fears

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Hold on, gotta go get my husband before we can have this very simple conversation about nothing. I don't I I will say, devil's advocate, every relationship is different. Oh, absolutely. And for sure. If in your relationship or marriage or whatever, you've maybe you've even been to therapy and maybe you've discussed those type of things, and this makes me feel this way because of this. But that's you've agreed together that just to respect these things that you've discussed and talked through, this is how you're gonna operate, then that's different. Like every family or relationship can be like that. Of course, but to just blanket say, oh, like men and women or or whatever sexual orientations can't be just friends is not right. I agree. I agree. Anyway, it's annoying. I would tell my kids the same because well, yeah, I'm not gonna I'll stop about that. I just come on, such a dick, first of all. I'm not just like, I don't want to hear your two. She's like, well, it's actually really no, no, doesn't matter. What do you what's the best ending in all literary? Don't say Ulysses. And I was like, What the fuck, dude?

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Do you not feel like they couldn't decide how they wanted this character to be?

SPEAKER_02 21:49

He keeps changing.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

I know.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

It's like it's like, I'm married and I have kids, okay, therefore it's a safe relationship. Just kidding. And I just say that to everyone. Now we can kiss. And now he's like, just kidding, shutting it down.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yeah, I feel like they just couldn't decide what they wanted to do with him. Like he is all over the place. And he's not likable.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

No. I liked him at first. You did. Remember? I said he was charismatic, and you're like, no, he's not. I take it all back.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Good.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

At least this version of his.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Well, yeah. I mean, I don't know. That it was just a yucky situation. So yucky. And then I don't know. These two episodes were not the best. They weren't the best.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Let's see what else I had. Oh, I said the band is two people. Right. And then they're not cute. I guess so grunge.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Was that the real band veneer?

SPEAKER_02 22:34

I don't know. Maybe. Maybe that's why. They looked like that because they were dumb.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

But they were not bad actors, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

They were good actors.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

I just thought they weren't as cute as they were acting like they were.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

I I did write down this quote from Pacey when he's saying something about gay men, and he says, You guys are great. But I'm just not, whatever. I just thought that was actually kind of funny. I said the professor's annoying. Oh, and the talking to the side of your mind. I said the professor is annoying.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

You were literally right here. Right here. Talking. This is my new lean.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

It's my podcast.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

But you're not you're not doing that, you're doing this.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

It's not even cool. This is cool. Obviously. That looks cool. Not really. That looks just like your back hurts or something. Maybe that's what's happening. It probably does hurt. Um I don't know. I'll ask it later. Do you hurt back? And the answer will be yes, always. Okay. This they are really trying to over-romanticize this professor thing at the moment. Where it's like, it's good that we never, never knew what it could be. Because sometimes the ending we don't know is the best one. I was like, okay, they kissed, and it's a horrible situation, and they shouldn't be together. That's it.

unknown 23:54

Right.

The Great Sleep Spiral

SPEAKER_02 23:54

And he's at the movies with this other lady, and he's like, oh yeah, sometimes we just hook up. It's like this, no matter who he is, this is the kind of person you want to involve yourself with romantically. Yeah. What? What? I just yeah. I wasn't, I was I I am hoping that means we don't see as much of him, but I don't think that's what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

I don't remember what ends up going on with this guy.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Like, is this actually the end now? Where it's like, okay, we tried it, we did it. Right, but maybe they just don't emphasize that in other episodes. True. What do you think's gonna happen, or maybe you know? I don't see an Audrey.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

I mean, I know they don't stay together because I know how the whole series ends. True. Okay, but I don't remember how that split happens. I think they're a fun couple.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

I think they want them to have a little bit of like like but you know what it is, they're almost two alike. Uh that might be it.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Yeah, and if you're two alike, that doesn't work. No, you gotta have some balance.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

I agree with that, which is interesting because you mentioned the Jen Pacey thing when they were sort of forcing it. Didn't they say to each other, yeah, like you're the girl me and you're the boy me, and that's why it's not working? Yeah, weird. I don't know. Well, anyway, um, and then Dawson wasn't well, Dawson wasn't in the first one we watched at all. And then he was only in a little bit very little bit in this one, and Jen's all worried that they're not passionate enough.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Girl, y'all are like 20 and you just are dating. Like, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Yeah, and she's all worried about it.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

I guess, but we're old married ladies, like that's true.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

We're like, eh. We're like passionate. You're fine. Romance? What? You're fine. Friendship is fine. Just stick with that. Comfort is great. Comfort is the one. I had trouble sleeping last night. Uh-oh. I know. Part of you may be noticing if I'm not making sense on these episodes.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

She didn't fall asleep while I was talking.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Uh, I didn't. And I've got a pretty long day, so I have to stay awake. But I I don't know, I feel okay right now, but you know when you can can't fall asleep, then you start to panic a little, and then you really can't fall asleep.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Yeah, it's the worst.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

But this morning I said something to my husband about it, and he was like, Why didn't you wake me up? And I'm like, Because then you're awake. Like for some love time? I don't, I don't know. I don't think so. He's like, I just like I feel bad if you're awake and by yourself.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Really? Oh my god, if I woke Troy up just to keep me company, he'd be so pissed.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

And I said, Well, that wouldn't have helped me fall asleep. He's like, I know, but I just feel bad. And then when we I was I was like having a moment at the grocery store and couldn't figure anything out, I like literally ran into like an end cap like with my shoulder while I was looking for something. He's like, See, this is what I feel so bad about. You should have woken me up. And I was like, I don't understand how that would have fixed anything. I know, but I guess he just felt bad.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

But that's nice. I I'm telling you right now, if if I because listen, I I have like chronic insomnia that goes up and down. If I ever would just wake up and be like, hello, keep me company, he'd be like, I have to get up for work at 6:30.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

You're crazy. Honestly, if Brandt did that to me, he did that once to me recently because he really was not feeling well. Well, if he was sick, that's and so I was glad.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Well, I mean, Troy crawled into our room one time when he had appendicitis.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Yeah. Well, and it was that kind of thing where he was like his heart was violently having trouble, like breathing. And so I was glad he woke me up. But if it was ever just like, hey, you want to watch something on Netflix? Because I can't sleep. I'd be like, bitch, it's 2 30. I would too. No, I want to watch my eyelids. I would too. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Well, and the shitty part is once you wake me up, I do not go back to sleep.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

And that's how he is.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

I can fall back to the city. I'm awake forever. I need to track it because this is happening to me about once a month, and I'm wondering if it's hormonal.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

I'm not sure. Everything is hormonal.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Because this happened to me not long before it was like tech week of next to normal, I think. And then sometime in December, too, where I had a night that I basically didn't sleep and then just like went normal the whole next day, and I couldn't like talk myself down. I mean, it was a little bit of anxiety, but last night really wasn't. Like, I was the only anxiety was because you're awake, I have to get up soon. Yeah. But like a couple of like anxiety about my show, maybe a little in Christmas time. I was worried about like money and family and just normal holiday stuff. But I'm wondering, like, maybe I should track it because I wonder if it's cycle related, and then I could kind of like try to limit my caffeine, go for a long walk, do something to try to like knock myself out.

CPAPs, Pets, And Sleep Hygiene

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Man, sleep is like such an elusive treasure.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Wow. I mean, that's the thing for me. Well, yes, for me, normally it's not. This is happening to me about once a month, and that's what I mean. I have such sympathy for people that this happens to all the time. That's my life. It's terrible.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

It is awful. I've had 20 people, I have had sleep problems since I don't know, probably my 20s. And it sucks. But mine comes in cycles, so I'll go for a while and be okay. But I wake up 80 bajillion times a night. I don't think I've had a full night restful sleep since I was like 20. And then when I had babies is when it really fucked me because I'd said once I'm awake, I cannot go back to sleep. And it does not matter how tired I am. I am so awake. And it sucked. You know, you have babies that wake up at 2, 3 in the morning. I'm awake for the day. And then, especially like if Troy was gone, which he was a lot, it's just me. Nobody's there to help me out.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Like it's not like if you can't want into take a nap, you could. I can't sleep during the day.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Like, I also like I know you're not a napper. I can't I can't. Like, I've my body physically will not go to sleep. Yeah, and it's funny because this past weekend, when I had that girl's trip, Amber is it has sleep apnea and she snores. She has a CPAP machine. Well, they're very uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

They look me too. My mom has one, and my husband's friend has one when he comes and stays with us.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Yeah, and she she's not good about wearing it, but she will when we go on our trips because we're in the same room. Now, the past few trips we've done together, we've had separate room we've rented, like, you know, some kind of Airbnb situation where we have separate rents in the bedroom, yeah. Because I am a light fucking sleeper. And when we went to New York together years ago, I didn't sleep the whole weekend because this was before her CPAP, and she fucking snored and it was so loud. And listen, I sleep with earplugs, white noise, eye mask, so many things, and that's how loud it is. Also, a mouse could fart and I'd be awake.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

Yeah, not just the snoring.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

So the thing with Amber is she starts off the night great with a thing on, but then you get hot underneath it, right? And we're all perimenopausal women, so like you when we get hot, it's it's a disaster. And so I would wake up at like 2:30 or 3 in the morning because she was sawing logs, guys, and her thing would be off. Oh and I'm like, oh, and I would I I was like, I know this is it, this is it. I'm awake forever.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

And um, anyway, it's just so so to your point, sleeping is elusive treasure, it is an elusive treasure, I like it, especially for people who have sleep problems.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

I mean, her too, because she has sleep apnea, so even if she thinks she's sleeping eight, nine, ten hours, it's not restful sleep, right? It's not like the deep sleep that you need because your body is trying to keep you alive, correct? Because she and I feel I will always film her snoring because you can because you hear her snore, and then she stops breathing, yeah, and then starts snoring again. And she's like, every time she does it, she was like, That's that's really bad. And I'm like, I know, so wear your fucking thing.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

Yeah, don't take it off when you're hot. Although it's good, it's hard. I know, I know, I know. It's hard.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Well, at least she has a CPAP that's she does, but anyway, so all that to say, for a lot of people, sleep is an elusive treasure.

Caffeine, Chocolate, And Insomnia

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Yeah, well, even like I like having the dogs in our room when we sleep because it just makes me feel cozy, but they'll do the slightest thing, and my husband wakes up and can't fall back asleep. Well, and that's they'll like lick the air, which is super annoying when I'm awake, but I don't hear it when I'm sleeping. Say, I wake up. It will wake him up and he'll be like, Who is licking what? Why am I awake?

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Our cat can't sleep in our room. Well, and actually, because I read all these studies on sleep, and that's one of the things they tell you is sleep no animals in your room. Yeah, like they just keep them out. That is gonna mess up your sleep. And also have separate bedding situations if you're gonna share a bed with people. Yeah, that has been a life changer for us.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

We do too. Like, I guess we share like the comforter, but I have like a naked blanket that kind of sections me up. Well, you know, I like basically burrow. I'm in a I'm in a tomb when I sleep. Uh, so you can't get to me. Although that makes sense because if someone like rolls and pulls something, then that's gonna wake you up.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Because Troy is like is a flippy floppy sleeper. Got it. And so every time he'd pull the blank, I would wake up. Yeah, and then it's like so that has been life-changing for us. What would be really life-changing is two separate beds. But yeah, that is a no-go for him. So I have to just be tired the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Wow. The end, and I will be tired the rest of today, but I should be able to, and I'm gonna just like make sure I'm not drinking any caffeine. I'll probably have a tiny bit more coffee when we're done on here, and then that's two o'clock.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Cut yourself off. That's the timeline. Is that the good one? Two o'clock? Trust me. And trust and believe, I know.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

I believe you. And I don't usually have anything after that, but I but I did yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Oh. Because I You might be entering into a new adventure land of grandma caffeine and take.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

I might be because I had been cleaning all day and I sat down to work at like three. Like sat down, sat down. And I was like, oh, you know what would be nice? A fresh cup of coffee. That was and I made a fresh cup of coffee at three. I only drank about half of it. Don't matter. But then I could not sleep. See. Could not sleep. Did you have any sugar either after three o'clock? I did make brownies. And I don't usually eat those, but chocolate has caffeine. And I did have I usually don't, but because they were homemade and like the whole house smelled like brownies, I did have a couple. So that's that's what it was. And those are things I don't normally do. I don't normally have caffeine that late, and I don't really eat chocolate ever.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

You just solved a mystery.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Wow, everybody. I'm so glad we have to do that. Five minutes about episode 15, five minutes about episode 16, and 30 minutes about sleep, and can men and women be friends extended.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Well, I think who uh like most of the people who listen to these rewatch episodes are uh in the same boat with hormones fucking with their life a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

All right, so no chocolate. Um speaking of food, that I had red 40 pulsing through my veins when we recorded that night episode last time. I don't think you had that much candy. I was a disaster. I listen back, I was like, was I drunk? The only thing I had was Starburst, and not even that many, but it was at night. We know you don't do your best work at night. I that is that's a sermon right there.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

And that's why I said it.

Closing And Vanderbeek Tribute

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Okay, so that's what it was. It's just nighttime. Okay, yeah. I wasn't poisoned by candy, intoxicated by Starburst. I don't think so. I think it's just yeah. Yeah, wow. Okay. Well, anyway, everyone, uh, like Danny said, make sure you don't miss our James Vanderbeek tribute episode that is live already. And um thanks for listening to our Doctor's Creek Rewatch, and we'll see you on the next one. Bye.