Dawson's Creek, S5 E7 & E8: New Loves And Old Loyalties

Frat parties, a film festival and uncomfortable dinners with friends highlight the next two episodes of Season 5. We talk about Dawson and Jen's budding relationship -- the second time around -- and Karen's departure from Boston.

Watch all of Season 5 with us on Hulu or Amazon Prime.

Leave us a glowing review wherever you listen to podcasts, and connect with Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast at all the places below:

Patreon

TikTok

Instagram

Facebook

Email us at generationinbetweenpodcast@gmail.com

Request an episode topic here

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Season Five
• 0:37 Frat Formal Culture And Jack
• 2:03 Parallel Chats: Boat And Dorm
• 3:10 Pacey, Karen, And Kitchen Drama
• 5:05 Film Fest, Grief, And Dawson’s Dedication
• 6:35 Dawson And Jen: Full Circle
• 7:55 Anticlimactic Confrontations At Work
• 8:40 Jump To Episode Ten: Dinner Reveal
• 9:30 Joey’s Fickleness And Group Dynamics
• 11:00 Friendship Breakups And Adult Plans
• 12:40 Doors Ajar: Secrets, Charlie, And Grams
• 14:30 Acceptance, Boundaries, And Moving On

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

Hello everyone and welcome back to our Dawson's Creek rewatch here on Generation in Between. We are on season five, episode nine today. It's titled Hotel New Hampshire. And here is the summary. As Joey and Audrey join Jack and his friends at a fraternity formal, Dawson invites Jen to join him for a weekend in New Hampshire.

SPEAKER_01: 0:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 0:23

A lot happened though, these two episodes.

SPEAKER_01: 0:25

A lot happened in these two episodes. A lot of things that had been building up, and then like some other like out of nowhere. Not out of nowhere, but like, oh, I didn't expect that.

SPEAKER_00: 0:35

Yeah. I remembered that. Well, we'll get there. Okay, so I had to say the beginning where the fraternity guys are planning their formal and they're like, everybody must get laid. I said, oh my God, that is literally so for real. Yeah. That is so real with that toxic objective objectification by straight men, even though Jack is not a straight man, but generally in fraternities, at least back in our day. Right. Like when this was recorded. And I just have a feeling it probably hasn't changed.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04

Probably hasn't changed a whole lot. And it continues through the episode, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:08

Like attitudes towards it. Yeah. But like honestly, when you are in college, and I mean, not just men, not just males, that you're of that age where that is your goal so much is to hook up. Not even like have like full-on sex, but like right. Your goal is to hook up, and that is across the board. That's across the board.

SPEAKER_01: 1:33

So that was literally so and and then I didn't love like every time and and I hate that Jen is a little bit proven right by some of the things that happened with the fraternity in this one, but I hate that she's constantly like mad at Jack for being in the fraternity. And I'm like, it that alone is not a problem. Also, he's happy and has friends, and but she she just always makes it about that. I don't know. I didn't I didn't love that. She was doing that at the beginning. Uh, I thought that it was cute. They had those little like side-by-side scenes where Pacey and Dawson were like on his on Pacey's boat chatting, and then Jen and Joey are like having a chat, and then Jen was like, Oh, you're a good or Joey said, You're a good person, you're good for Dawson to like be talking to and hanging out because Joey's genuinely asking how he's doing because her and Dawson aren't really communicating well, or she feels like she's not there for him. So I thought those kind of side-by-side scenes were were good.

SPEAKER_00: 2:31

I like this. I did write, I did write, why is Pacey so after this Karen? She has a whole problem. She has a whole problem. He will not relax.

SPEAKER_01: 2:40

And thankfully he she leaves. Thankfully. But yes, he why is he so after her? I don't know. It's weird. And we hear from I forget her name, but the other girl that was dating Charlie. Oh, yeah. Jen are hanging out. And she's like, oh, and he keeps sending all these love letters. And Jen's like, oh, not to me. Awkward. That was really awkward. That was really awkward.

SPEAKER_00: 3:02

I did love Jen's little Mia Farrow look at the film fest. So cute. It was so cute. It's a little hot.

SPEAKER_01: 3:07

But you know it's weird. She looked like the guy who was the other film festival guy. There's a moment where they both like stand up for Doss, and I'm like, they're wearing the same thing. The same hat. Yeah. The same like vest situation. I mean, obviously she looked amazing. But yeah. That's funny. That was really funny. I was like, okay. And then his little dedication to his dad. I know. And what the film festival guy said about his dad. I know. That was really, really sweet. And I said, Audrey's hair is so cute when they're going to the formal. It just got like that little bit of crimping done, but it's like pulled back. That was really cute. I could never get my hair to do that. Like if I tried to crimp it, it's like Oh, we all know what happens with styling tools in my hair. So nothing. We'll leave that to her. We'll leave that to her. And she did it. She did a good job. Um, and I liked Audrey in both of these episodes. I felt like these were kind of group episodes, both of them, kind of. Right between the fraternity, and then obviously the next one we watch where they're all at like dinner and stuff. But I thought that she really was like in it and being her own character in the in the group. Like she's the she's the new one. Yeah. But she was like holding her own.

SPEAKER_00: 4:16

She is now a cohesive of their unit.

SPEAKER_01: 4:18

Agree. Agree.

SPEAKER_00: 4:19

I did write ew, Jack. What the fuck? Like, what are you doing? Ew, Jack.

SPEAKER_01: 4:24

I said the same thing.

SPEAKER_00: 4:25

Yeah, come on, Jack.

SPEAKER_01: 4:27

Yeah. Don't prove Jen right. We're trying to defend you out here. Um, and then Dawson and Jen, are they together? Oh, I said, are they together? And then I said, Do we like them kissing? Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 4:42

Well, let's just find out. Before we go there, I had to write down, you know that film guy? The one that's like weird. Yeah, that always wins. Did he give Dawson a college business card? Did you notice that? Yeah, he's like, Oh, this is a couple of cards. He's like here. And I'm like, Are you you have a business card for being in college?

SPEAKER_01: 5:02

It was so weird. Well, and because of that, I was like, maybe it's just like a network of people that do films, but then later Dawson's like, Yeah, there's a school I might go to in Boston. I was like, so it is a school.

SPEAKER_00: 5:14

He has a college business card. I don't know. That was great. Okay, so yes, let's talk about Jen and Dawson together.

SPEAKER_01: 5:20

I didn't hate it. I think I don't hate it either. I read that too. I don't hate them. I don't hate it. I think I think they're very um obviously more mature than like the last time. And I think maybe they weren't on the same level the last time, and now they are. Yeah. And they're both at these different junctures where Jen's just been burned by this bad relationship. Dawson is grieving and questioning where he'll go next. So they're not at like the same junctures, but like complimentary ones, right? That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00: 5:53

Well, I also like I don't hate that he lost his virginity to her either. I know. That's the big one. It took me a second. I was like, wait a minute. It's kind of like a fun full circle moment because he wanted to years ago, and then he did. And it makes sense when we had the naked swimming flashback last week.

SPEAKER_01: 6:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 6:10

And then, but did you notice Jen wakes up, has like lip gloss on? Yeah. I was like, all right. No. No. That ain't good. But good for you. But good for you.

SPEAKER_01: 6:19

Yeah. Yeah, I like that. And then um, I did say that like for Pacey's sanity, I'm glad Karen left. But I hate that Karen left. I thought she'd be gone. Yeah, but I hate that like in this picture she has to leave because of this whole situation with this man and like she has to change her whole life. Okay, but she also knew he was married. I know. I'm not saying it's his fault, but I don't know. I just I don't know. I didn't love it. And is this the one where he did confront the yeah, he confronted the chef, Pacey? That was kind of anticlimactic. I thought so too. The guy's like, oh, is this about Karen? Oh yeah. Sorry about that. You can still work here if you want. And I was like, that's it. We're done. I don't know. Yeah. He's like, yeah, sorry, I shouldn't have taken your boat. Yeah.

unknown: 7:07

What?

SPEAKER_01: 7:08

And then it was over. I was like, okay, well, I don't know what I thought I was waiting for. I know, but it wasn't this scene.

SPEAKER_00: 7:14

I know. It was it was very anticlimactic, is a good word. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 7:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:18

Agreed. Oh well. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01: 7:20

That's all I had on that one.

SPEAKER_00: 7:21

Same. So let's move on to man, we are being speeding. We fly in.

SPEAKER_01: 7:24

We fly in.

SPEAKER_00: 7:25

Eight minutes. My stomach is hungry.

SPEAKER_01: 7:32

Your stomach is growling. Oh guys. Oh, I can't. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 7:35

I get you know what it is? It's when I have my workout before I come record. Those days is when my stomach is like crazy. Because my breakfast has done gone. Like it is away. Completely gone. Like my my stomach is like, hello. All right. So we are on season five, episode 10, Appetite for Destruction. Dawson and Jen return home to an unexpected dinner party where their new relationship is suddenly unveiled. All right. So much to say about this episode, I think. I wrote first thing I wrote, okay, Joey always with her face. That face. Her face is always like and if you're not watching on YouTube, it's you know what I'm talking about. You know. I can't, I just I I wrote, I cannot, with her fickleness in regards to Dawson. Yeah. It's like she doesn't want him, but she doesn't want nobody else to have him either. You cannot have it both ways. I know. And she's like that with Pacey, too. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 8:28

Yeah. It's too much. Girl. I know. Move the fuck on. I agree.

SPEAKER_00: 8:33

I can't. I can't. I'm over it.

SPEAKER_01: 8:35

I thought it, okay. I thought it was weird how First of all, no Grams is there. Grams comes in at the end, but like she's not there for the dinner party, which is a bummer for me personally, because I always like when Grams is there. But then they referenced the fact that she's not there so many times that I was like, finally, I'm like, well, where the hell is she? Where's the thing? What's going on? And then she sort of just shows up at the end and is like, well, I'm going to bed. And I was like, okay. But where were you? Yeah. Did they say? No, I don't think they did. She just shows up at the end.

SPEAKER_00: 9:05

So wow. I don't know what that was. I also wrote, Audrey is so funny, and I wrote down when she said, You're just a nice country girl who grew up on a stream. I know that too.

unknown: 9:12

I know.

SPEAKER_01: 9:13

That was so funny. Country girl who grew up. Who grew up on a stream?

SPEAKER_00: 9:17

Like, it's a creek, Audrey. It's a creek. But yes, that. But also, why is everyone so worried about Joey? Like, okay, she broke up with Dawson, right? I think.

SPEAKER_01: 9:31

I don't know. I think he tried. I I get why Audrey was. But like, because Audrey's been in the thick of it and knew Dawson came for that one weekend and she tried to give him the book and it didn't go so well. So she's seeing like up close this. But then, like, it is kind of odd that then, like, like Jack and um Pacey and even Dawson. It feels like he has to seek her out and Jen needs to seek her out. It's sort of like so much hand holding for it is what?

SPEAKER_00: 10:02

And it's also like the same old storyline that's been going on since season one. Like, can we not have evolution?

SPEAKER_01: 10:08

Right. Right. That I get that her feelings were hurt. I mean, I get that. It it's they probably wouldn't have revealed it to her that way. I think Dawson and Jen would have told Joey relatively quickly and probably their friends, but to sort of be like, you know how it is when you when you have a reaction to something but it's in front of other people. It makes it harder. Like and that's Joey. So not only like if she had just seen them kissing on the street or a park or something, she would have had that look on her face. She would have had that look and could process. But now everyone's staring at her wondering if she's okay on top of it. She's also being stupid. She is like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:52

And then like I wrote down when Jen said, is she sad? And Dawson said, She is, and she isn't. Yeah. I was like, okay. But also isn't is what we should be.

SPEAKER_01: 11:07

Like she gotta she gotta move on. Yeah, she does. And another quote I wrote was when there's that really weird scene where it's just Pacey, Jack, and Dawson at the table for a hot minute. Yeah, and they're like talking to him, and he's like, I'll cover the bases later. And Pacey's like, bases is plural, like talking about with Joey. Oh yeah. That was just a weird scene. Yeah. I I don't know about that. And and like Pacey wanting to know about that. I don't know. And Jack too. I was like, this is weird.

SPEAKER_00: 11:39

Yeah. I don't love this. I don't love that either. I didn't write that down for some reason. Um I did write, and I don't remember I don't remember what made me say this. I said friendship breakups are harder than romantic ones.

unknown: 11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:54

I guess because they were talking about like they don't see each other and like whatever. I think they are. Like, I think it's harder when you have a good friendship that falls apart for whatever reason. Theirs was just circumstantial, like they're a little group or whatever. I think they're harder than romantic ones. I honestly do, but that's just me because I've always kept friends very close. Sure. But I think they're much harder, especially if they're valuable ones. Right. Not like an acquaintance that kind of falls through the cracks or what because that happens. Of course. Some people are in your life just for a season, you know, and that's whatever. But I'm talking about like those good friendships that just kind of wane or something. Those are hard.

SPEAKER_01: 12:36

It is, it's really hard. Those are hard. I agree. And I think they do show that relatively well. Like, like you just said, it's not always some big major thing that has to happen. Yeah, it could just be a chuckle. It just is like I'm at this school and doing this thing now, and you're here doing this thing, and you know, it's just it's a lot. I know. It's a lot, it's a hard, it's hard to go through. Oh, and then and then when that weird scene I was talking about, when Dawson leaves, and so now it's just Pacey and Jack. And they both say something to the effect of like almost sleeping with Jen. Oh yeah. They're saying we are both almost dead. And then they're like, I guess it takes a virgin who's a straight. Yes. I was like, what is this garbage? Yeah, trash. I was like, and that was a vote. I was like, oh yeah, he was a virgin. Wow, this is a bigger deal. But he said something about it.

SPEAKER_00: 13:26

Because he said in that last episode, because he said, This is what everybody's been talking about. Right. That's true. No, maybe I missed that line, which usually girls do.

SPEAKER_01: 13:34

I was probably taking a 30-second nap right at this part.

SPEAKER_00: 13:38

But also, I always think it's funny too, because I think of like boys losing their virginity and when girls lose their virginity, it's a very different thought process. Very different.

SPEAKER_01: 13:47

It's sort of terrif terrifying. When we were watching, no, when we were watching our town, that line that the mom has. She's like, what's what we do to our girls is cruel. Yeah. Sending them off with like these men when they're young. And I was like, Yes. Yes. Thankfully, it's not exactly like that nowadays, but the same concept.

SPEAKER_00: 14:07

It's it's it's like he's like, This is what everybody's been talking about. And girls are usually like, This is what everybody's been talking about.

SPEAKER_01: 14:14

Question mark.

SPEAKER_00: 14:16

This? Yeah. It gets better. It does. But it does. It gets hang in there. Hang in there, everyone. Not like anybody young is listening to this. I hope not. Well, but if you are, if you are, it's better. It does. Um, I just wrote again, Joey B too much. She's too much.

unknown: 14:34

Too much.

SPEAKER_01: 14:35

And I said good for Dawson for just telling her the truth. Just straight up. Yeah. Like, like, because she was like, Well, we're just talking about a kiss. And he was like, No. Yeah. He's just like, no, this is what happened. But also, she needs to not be upset about it. She had sex with Pacey. On a boat for a whole summer.

SPEAKER_00: 14:51

No, they didn't do it on the boat, remember? Oh, yeah. But they did it in that lodge. I forgot about it. On the school trip.

SPEAKER_01: 14:59

On the school trip. I forgot about that. What happened to um Drew? He's just not in Boston. Oh, yeah, I guess. Because they moved out of Boston. Yeah. I just thought of him because of the ski trip. Yeah, I don't know if I'm not sure. I wonder who flops back in. I don't know. Flops. Flops. He's gonna flop on back.

SPEAKER_00: 15:16

He's gonna flop on down. I wrote down, I said this is a preview into how hard it is to make plans with friends as you get older. Uh-huh. Yep. Because they were like talking about, well, we were gonna have the center, but we can't. And he's like, Well, I've got a crap meeting and I gotta do this and I have that. Pacey's like, I gotta work. And I'm like, man, isn't that the truth? It is. Like, I'd be texting, for example, I mean, for you and I all the time, like we see each other, guys. You don't understand. When we went to go see our town last weekend, that's the first time we did something just for fun.

SPEAKER_01: 15:46

Yeah. Together.

SPEAKER_00: 15:47

Together. Without a purpose, just to go see a show. Like, but for instance, I was texting with our friend Patrick because I saw them at New Year's Eve for a brief moment. And then they were like, Oh, let's get together. We're gonna, and I was like, Oh, we should go to arcade monsters, blah, blah, blah. So he followed up with me and he was like, Hey, Dina and I really want to go. Are y'all free this week? And I was like, Oh, no, I'm not free this weekend. Are y'all free next week? And he's like, Nope, dah dah da. And then I'm like, well, so it took us. This was the first weekend in Feb in January. We're we will be able to get together the end of February. Wow. That's how soon we both had. They don't even have kids, they're just adults. They're just busy, they're just busy. But when you're adults, try and you throw kids in the mix, oh my gosh. It's a lot. Kids that like do their own thing, it's a lot of stuff. And so just it's just so hard for adults to make plans. It is with friends. Crazy. It takes so much effort. It does. It really does. Yeah. I read somewhere like it said you have to you need to like date your friends, you know. I love that. Like make it a priority to like get together because it's important. It is, like, you never stop needing friends. And I think about that when I see old people and they don't have friends. Like, I think our parents' generation was probably the last generation to kind of be like that. Like, they they just have each other, and that makes me sad. Right. Because I don't know, it just makes me sad because you and then, like, I don't know if you've ever seen this, and Troy has a whole different view on this than me. We went to dinner one night and we're chatting, and this older couple, like I'm saying they're probably 80 something, were sitting behind Troy, and I could see them the whole time we ate dinner. They did not say a word to each other the whole time. Wow. And there was like something on the TV they kept both glancing at and then say, and I was getting sadder and sadder. So we get in the car and I said, Oh my god, I don't ever want to be like that, to just not have anything to say to each other. And he said, Well, but what if they're just so comfortable with each other? They don't feel like they have to talk.

SPEAKER_02: 17:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 17:47

And I was like, Oh, well, I'll never be like that.

SPEAKER_01: 17:51

I will never be comfortable.

SPEAKER_00: 17:54

I I just like to talk. So I mean, yeah, I'm not one for silence. My poor husband wishes I was the first time.

SPEAKER_01: 18:01

He's like, he's like, I don't think it's so bad. I know he's like, a whole dinner where you don't say a fucking word. That's right. No, I'm just joking. I mean, I think there's something to that for some couples that the comfortability level is so high that you can sit through a meal and just be happy to be with the person. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 18:17

It just made me so sad. Like, I don't know. It made me sad. And what makes me even more sad is when I see younger people and they're just on their phones the whole time. And I'm like, bro, if you're doing that now, right.

SPEAKER_01: 18:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know it's hard with with your significant others and with friends to keep it going and and have those like touch points. And it's important. Like, I really enjoyed going to the show, and it's important to do something. We did we had a moment where we were talking about something at our town. Remember that? And our friend Meredith was like, Well, I feel like I'm on a podcast episode with you guys. Because we were just talking about something, you were arguing about like the name of someone, and we're like, it's what do we say? It's Kevin, Kevin Bacon, and I said, No, it's Kevin Spacey. You're like, No, it's Kevin Klein. Yeah. And I was like, Oh yeah, Kevin Space.

SPEAKER_00: 19:06

I said it's Kevin something, and you said Kevin Spacey. And I said, No. Or no, you said Kevin Bacon, and I said, No, that's not right. And you said, Oh, Kevin Spacey. I said, No, that's not right. And I said, Oh, it's Kevin Klein. And you're like, Yes, that's the one.

SPEAKER_01: 19:18

Yes. Oh my gosh, it's a person. No, not till 1230. Oh, I was like, Oh, because I just heard the door. Okay. I think she has a 1215. Um, yes, so that. So that was really funny. Um, oh, uh another some of these scenes set up were ridiculous in this episode, but the one where they go into the kitchen, but the French doors are not closed all the way. Oh yeah. And they could just have a whole conversation. And Dawson and Jen are right like in the crack of the door. Hearing nothing, hearing nothing. And they hear nothing. And also like they can just turn their heads and see them like kissing. Yes, noodling or whatever. I was like, hello. I did like those doors though off the kitchen. That was fun. So then, so then Charlie shows up.

SPEAKER_00: 19:58

Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:59

What if he returned a flaming lips t-shirt?

SPEAKER_00: 20:01

Something like that.

SPEAKER_01: 20:02

It's like the thought of you studying with that just made me too sad. And I was like, wow. Okay. Okay, bye. Um, and then all I said was, I love the description Dawson gave Joey on distance, but I don't know what that meant. I don't remember what that was. Uh and then the part where Audrey tells them they should appreciate each other. Yeah. She's like, Do you know how many people I knew when I was 15 that I talked to now? Zero. Do you talk how many? From 15?

SPEAKER_00: 20:29

Who probably college several. College several, but like, I mean, I keep up with people on social media too. Me too. And we'll like comment here and there.

SPEAKER_01: 20:39

But I would say like chit-chat. Definitely people from my childhood, even younger than that, who I'm I'm have a lot in common with now, I would say. I keep pretty connected with on social media. Or if I do go home to see my parents, I make plans with them or whatever. But um certainly when I was in college, probably not that many. Yeah. And my college girlfriends, if you're in high school. Yeah, when I was in high school in college, I probably wouldn't have had a lot of contact with a lot of my high school friends.

SPEAKER_00: 21:07

Yeah, I was glad to leave that area, but I mean, I keep in contact, I mean, I still hear from people sometimes, but but not like we'd be texting.

SPEAKER_01: 21:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 21:16

Right. No, me either.

SPEAKER_01: 21:18

Um, so I liked what she said about that. I don't agree. And then Graham shows up. And then she came back. And it's so funny because she just says so many like faux pas like things right in a row, not knowing. Yeah. She's like, Oh, how are you doing? Oh, Dawson, it's too late to go back. You'll spend the night with us. Oh, you can fill me all in. Um I'm sure nothing exciting happened in New Hampshire, but you can that you couldn't tell me about tomorrow. Well, Dawson, you're spending the night and then attic again. I know. More attics that have living space. And that was funny when Jen was like, Oh, yeah, I'm afraid of things under the bed, in the closet, like on the stairs, whatever. Me, me. And that attic, like, I was like, Okay, I don't know. I mean, the house, I guess Jack. Has a bedroom in the house too, but I was like, the house seems big enough. Why does Dawson have to be in the attic? Right. But maybe it's not. Maybe that's literally. And there's a bed up there. I don't know. I know. Weird. It was weird. It was weird. But anyway, I did like these episodes. I feel like they were better. Got some teeth. And I'm so curious. Some teeth. Right? We could sink our teeth into them. Nope. Nope. Should have left it. Should have left it. Went too far. Well, I tried. All right. So thank you for listening to Generation in Between, our Dawson's Creek Rewatch. And we will see you next time here on the podcast. Whoop, whoop. Bye.