Dawson's Creek S4, E19 & E20: Overdue and Prom on a Boat

We're nearing the end of Season 4 of Dawson's Creek, with Ep. 19 and Ep. 20 bringing all the drama as Gail awaits her overdue baby (then delivers her) and the gang goes to Senior Prom. 

We chat about a heart to heart that Mitch and Dawson have about men and babies, and Gretchen's fair point that she and Dawson are too young to make any decisions based on each other.

Join us in our rewatch on Hulu or Amazon Prime.

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Chapters

• 0:02 Nearing Season Four’s End
• 0:45 Episode 19 Setup: “Late”
• 1:02 Hate Crime Against Toby
• 1:46 Overdue Pregnancy Realism Check
• 3:05 Baby Names And Teen Panic
• 5:00 Treehouse Talk: Parenting Tropes
• 8:10 Bonding, Adoption, And Generalizations
• 11:05 Naming Lillian And Grief Threads
• 12:56 Episode 20 Setup: “Promicide”
• 13:00 Gretchen’s Career Vs Dawson’s Expectations
• 15:23 Adults At Prom And Fashion Flashbacks
• 17:30 Boat Prom And Public Chemistry
• 19:10 First Love And Memory Lane
• 21:15 Jack And Toby: Push Vs Consent
• 22:45 Pacey’s Blowup And Character Whiplash
• 26:30 Scheduling Mix-Up And Season Wrap Tease
• 27:05 Sign-Off And Holiday Wishes

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

Welcome back everyone to our Dawson's Creek rewatch. We are nearing the end of season four. And today we're gonna talk about two episodes, and then the next time we talk, it's the end of season four. That is wild. It has flown by. I know. Their high school career will have come to an end by then. I don't like that either. Oh, I do. I don't. I don't remember watching the college, so I'm excited to see it because I don't think I watched I'm trying to figure out how they're setting it up. It's hard. I remember a little, I think I'll end up in Boston, I think. Alright. Or I think somebody tries to go somewhere else and then they all end up together eventually. Okay. They all end up. I can't remember the Pacey storyline, though. Hmm. Okay. Well, we'll find out. All right. So season four, episode 19, is called Late. Late. That says a lot. Um, as Gail struggles with an overdue baby, Joey worries she may be pregnant. Correct. And I wrote, at first I wrote, uh, Toby's back, but then I felt bad and wrote, oh, but also, oh no. I know. Because he he gets beat up. He gets beat up. And do we ever is it is it really just a mugging? Or was it like I was hate crime related? I it's definitely, I think, because they they called him slurs. Yeah. They called him slurs. And I thought, I was like, oh no, don't tell me they wrote in a sexual assault situation. They did they didn't. It it wasn't, it was just a physical assault, which is still terrible. Still horrible, but at least yes, it was a hate crime. Okay, okay. And I understand why he got nervous when Jack brought the cops because he's like, they're not gonna listen. Like they don't. I think that I'm glad that they showed that his reluctance, because it's not as easy as just let's go. Yeah. Yes, that. Okay, so the first thing I said is when Gail is two weeks overdue, I said that would never happen today. Oh no, never. Never at that age. I mean nope, you would not go to two weeks overdue. Never, never, never. Well, it starts to get very risky. And then like she goes in because she's having contractions and they send her home. I'm like, no way they would have sent her home that that far overdue. No. But I did laugh because when they when she thinks she's having the baby at the beginning and they get her like go bag, and then Mitch is like, I've got Enya and Kenny G. I know. And she's like rolling her eyes or whatever. That was that was cute. The go bag. And so when they go and they're like, oh, it's just Braxton Hicks, and then the doctor gives her a prescription, and the piece of paper just says, name your baby. Stupid. I thought that was weird. Why was the doctor like, you must name your baby? Your baby won't come until it has a name. I'm like, that's not science. Okay. I know so many people who have not named their baby until it was born, which totally makes sense. Or actually, I had one friend, they just could not decide. They brought that baby home from the hospital before it had a name. I've heard of that. Because you have, I mean, you have time. You do, actually. You don't have to know on the spot. Yeah. They were just calling it baby for like two weeks or something crazy. That's really cute. They finally landed on me. That's really cute. I put speaking of babies, I put the utter fear of a late period when you're a teen. Yep. Memories flooding back. Yeah. Yeah. But also, why didn't she just like take a pregnancy test right up right away? Well, I think she was just, it was just avoidance. She was just not. Okay. And that's why she wanted to talk to Pacey. And and why I I know in the episode prior, Joshua Jackson is arrested or whatever for drunkenness and all that stuff. But do we know why he actually wasn't on these episodes? We don't know. No, I think they just keep saying, oh, he's he's away because of his arrest. I was trying to think of another movie, but uh like we already talked about cruel intentions. That was already filmed because that's when he shaved his head. Because we're in 2001 now. Yeah. I'm sure it was something like that. I'm sure it was something, but I don't know. I didn't look it up. Interesting. Yeah, I put that. What did I put? I thought I had something else. Well, keep going. And then, and then okay, sorry, I'm hung up on this two-week thing. They're throwing Gail a baby shower two weeks late. I know. What? I don't know. Or was it just like I did a baby shower, it's like a namey. And she did say, like, I don't want to shower. So maybe they were finally just like, you know what, we're doing it anyway. Yeah. You haven't had this baby yet. We're having a little party. Yeah. We don't want to wait no more. I um when Joey's mean to Bessie, like she says, like mean stuff, but then when she goes to make up with her, um, I loved how Joey kind of apologized to her by just explaining all like the amazing things that Bessie does. I know. That was really sweet. I liked that. I really liked that. Um, at some point, Mitch makes a vagina monologue comment. I missed it. About the party. I missed it. He says something, I think when it's like him and Dawson going up to the tree house or something, which hello, tree house, but anyway, and he says something about the vagina monologue party or something. I missed that completely. Yeah. I thought that was funny. I don't know how I missed that. Yeah, that was funny. I was doing something while I was like, I told you I directed the vagina monologues in college. No, it would have been like 2002 or something. Yeah, perfect time. They did it. There was like a women's um violence organization that would host stuff like that during whatever month that was every year. So one year I got picked to direct it. It was really fun. I'm sure it was. It was really fun. I had really good actors too. Um, okay, what did we think about in the tree house when Dawson and Mitch are talking and the baby shower is going on and they're having like this heart to heart? And Mitch basically says, men don't love babies the way women do right away. I hated that. I didn't like that. Well, I hated that for a lot of reasons because sometimes women don't love babies right away either. Yes. That that was, I mean, first of all, I thought that was a dumb thing to say, just in general, but it took me a while to bond with my kids, and that's because I had a lot of emotional stuff going on. And I'm always real sensitive the way people talk about it, because you're led to believe exactly what he says, that it's going to be this instant, and for some people it is, but it's okay if it's not because for a lot of people it's not. Yeah. So there's a lot of factors of play. You're led to believe it's just this instant, oh my god, I love you so much, and you're so great, and I just want to hold you and be with you. It's not like that for everybody, right? And for some men, they have the instant bond. I know two gay men who adopted a baby from birth that had the instant bond as soon as they held their baby daughter. So, and they're two men, you know what I'm saying? Right. And my husband is an instant bonder, so like like could not hold the babies fast enough. See? And I think that it's not fair to just say that that is just how it is for X or X or Y or whoever, you know? Yeah. It's just I don't I don't like generalized statements like that because then it makes you feel yucky either way. And I think I was trying to think because it was bothering me too, and I was like, what's the point? And the only thing I could think, if there was a redeeming quality about it that they were trying for, is to normalize that for men who feel that way. Okay, but also but I don't know. But what about women? But what but also what about the men who do feel that way? I know. Then they feel weird, then they're like, oh, am I supposed to know? Well, what about people who adopt? Like I just said, that makes you feel like, oh, well just gonna take me too long. Cause and sometimes it does, but sometimes it doesn't, like I just said. It's just being a parent, no matter the journey it is for you, is weird. And you can't some things we do all share and some things we don't, right? And you can't generalize statements just make people feel shitty. I agree. I thought I thought that was weird. Like I I liked their kind of heart-to-heart and chatting about like being a parent and all of that, and I think in the episode they were trying to draw parallels again between kind of like seasoned couple, and then being that teenage where, of course, we have one character who is potentially thinking she is pregnant, and then the other people like thinking about it in general and thinking about their life, how it's gonna look and all of that. So I think they were trying to kind of like give some wisdom from one generation to the next, but some of it was just very like antiquid. And it's interesting again. I know I go back to this a lot, but when you think of James Ban Vanderbeek as a dad, I know. I mean, I I can't say what his parenting journey has looked like as far as bonding, but he at least at this point appears very bonded with his children. He's very involved. Dad, um dads are involved in lots of different ways, but in his way, it's like the everyday, the here, the kids on your lap, the he also has the privilege of time. He does. He does, you know what I'm saying? Because I think that's hard too when you're like, you know, if you're a working parent that works one, two jobs, you know, like one, two jobs, you don't have as much free time to to have that bonding, you know. And the undivided attention, that's the word I was looking for, undivided attention, you know. Yeah, totally. But even if you do have it, sometimes like I was a stay-home parent and I still struggled. Yeah, I had all the time in the world with my kids. Yeah. Both of them. And it's still hard. Right. It's hard. Like, yeah. When they were at the shower and the women were all like saying what names they liked for girls, and it was like Emma, Isabella, and then Graham's was like, Oh, Rose is always good. I just thought that was funny because I know I've told you, like, when I was pregnant with my daughter, I had not a name in my brain. I couldn't think of anything. I was like, I don't know. Mary, I don't know, and on my short list was Emma, Isabella. That's so funny. And it was my aunt who called me because she had seen my list because I sent it to my mom or something, and my mom shared it with her, who told me about her grandmother and the name. And that's what then I was like, okay, the name's here, which is kind of what happens in this episode too. How they find the name. Well, you know, it's funny because I wrote down I sobbed when the baby was born and they named her Lillian. Because I always wanted a daughter to name her Lily because a legend, obviously. Well, that's when the name like imprinted itself in my brain. Yeah. And, you know, I think the baby I lost may have been my my Lily, which is sad too. I know. And it is it's so funny to think about because I had a friend in the Air Force who she had a baby a few years after I had Caden and she had a girl and named her Lily. Yeah, that's so hard, right? And I was like, okay, I don't have a trademark on the name, but like and she had a great it stings a little, yeah. I know. Oh, and she didn't know, like she knew nothing about my life or story or whatever. No, I I get that. That's funny you say that because yeah, I thought I was sobbing when that was like, oh, she named every Joey's mom. And that baby looked like a newborn, it did, which you don't see a lot during this time frame. That baby was smooshy and had like that like matted, like newborn hair. Yes. Um, oh, I wrote this down too during the heart to heart with Mitch and Dawson. Mitch goes, Remember when your mother and I got a divorce? And then he's like, and now we're mad. And I was like, okay. You just never know the twists and turns. But remember, I mean, it's true. It was just the way he said it. I just started giggling. Yeah. I was like, Yeah, I remember I remember too, Mitch. I have nothing else on that one. Um, oh, I just said, why not take a test for Joey? Um, oh, okay. When they're at the hospital and Gretchen and Dawson are chatting, and Gretchen is going to interview for this job in Boston or something. And Dawson's all upset that like she didn't like even think to bring it up. And he says something to her to that extent when they're in the hospital waiting on the news about the baby. And he says something like, Well, you know, some of us just make decisions and don't ask other people. We're just worried about ourselves. And she's like, Well, isn't that how it's supposed to be right now in our lives? Yeah. And I was like, Hello, yes. She's like, Aren't we young, unattached people who are ambitious and like hoping to have career? You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I just was like, Yeah, Gretchen with a truth bomb right there. Um, oh, and then Joey says something to Dawson about sex as a magnifying glass. True. That was good. And then Lillian, the baby, yeah, which we already talked about. Okay. Next episode. All right. Season four, episode 20, is called Promicide, which I thought was super funny. Um, while sparking a pair of possible romances, Cape Side Senior Prom threatens the future of two others. Okay, let's first talk about this. Gretchen is 21 years old going to fucking prom. And you know the comment she makes? She goes, When I went to prom, it was in the last century. Girl. I was like, uh-huh. Maybe you need to not do that then. Because who the fuck is gonna want to go to prom at 21? Nummy. Girl, I'm also 43, so no one's gonna ask me at this point at 21. But I would not have wanted to go. Literally, it's just bizarre. It's weird. I hate it. Either like just let him go with his friends and enjoy it, or like the two of you do something else. Like, yeah, I just um Joey's dress. I said basically my prom dress. I know it was the purple with the yeah, the spaghetti strap, sure, all of it. It was my prom dress. My prom dress was black, long and black with fur. Oh, yes. I remember those. And I remember the pictures of you and the long black gloves. Yep. And then because um I was bad, and um my friend and I got long cigarette holders. That's hilarious, though. Why why we use them? Why were you guys so cool? I listen, oh, and oh, yeah. I don't think that that was not a word that was used to describe me. I actually had a vision as you were getting ready to tell me what you were gonna say. That you had like a flask in your gloves. No, that I did not. No, because I was not trying to get get kicked out. We drank after prom. I did not because they our school was like super serious about like do not come in choxcating, do not have it, or you are I think they like threatened for us to not graduate. Right. Yeah, it was like a big one. I was not messing with that. I was not messing with that at all, and I knew we were gonna have fun after, so I just saved it. Just have fun at the dance. Yeah, I did. I had a great time. Oh, Gretchen, when she said the woman paged her. Yes, I guess I'm too. She was the woman from the magazine job paged me, so I called her. Yeah, okay. Okay, that's pretty good. I also isn't Toby too old to be a prom as well. Yes. How old is Toby? I don't know. He's not at all. I feel like he's like 21. Yeah, 22, maybe.

unknown: 14:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:59

Why are we saying nobody past high school age should be at prom. Generally wants to go to prom. Right. Like, for example, if my daughter, like I would advise her to probably not ask your son to go with her this year. And I don't think he's I don't think he's allowed to. Schools are more strict about that now, too. Well, and honestly, he probably can't, because that's probably around the time of finals. Yeah. So but like I would be like, like I said about Gretchen and Dawson, go do something else or go with your friends, or go with your friends.

unknown: 15:26

Go with your friends.

SPEAKER_00: 15:27

And that might already be what she's gonna do.

SPEAKER_01: 15:28

But I'm just saying, I know.

SPEAKER_00: 15:30

Um, like okay, anyway. Gail's body immediately after she has a baby. Come on. I get it. She's an actress, she wasn't really pregnant. I know. But like, I'm like, what? Of course, I noticed that too. I was like, and you're in your like mid 40s, come on now. You would be wrecked huge, you would be wrecked, and two weeks overdue, literally. Come on. When you're in your 20s, your body like my body bounced back after Caden so fast. Oh yeah. But I was just turned 26. Yeah. Uh a few years later at Cooper, it took a minute. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And that's fine. Oh, because listen, that's what your body's supposed to do. It took your body nine months. Also, like if it's never back to normal, fine. Oh yeah. My my and what's normal? Not normal, but like if it's never back to pre-pregnancy, well, right, all so fine. Because your body has been through a journey that produced a life. Literally. Okay. How's it? It's fine. But I it I just had a laugh. I'm like, they didn't even try. They didn't even try. Her hair's cute. I know. Her makeup's cute. She don't be looking cute. She's wearing some tight outfit. I was like, her body. Nothing. It's like, it's like all right. Normal person, and then baby, someone's holding. Oh, I like the part where Drew shows up and he's like, Cool, a baby. Can I hold it? They're like, and everyone's like, no. But also everyone's passing the baby around, which is kind of weird, but like from a germ perspective. But anyway. But that was that was pre-pandemic. That was pre-pandemic. You're right. You're right. Okay. I wrote down things people don't do for prom anymore. Corsages, really. Yeah, not really. Bouton ears. I felt so bad for Pacey. I know. When his corsage was all and was he the one that ordered the limo? Okay, I thought so. And then I put limos. That's another one. Yeah, people don't do limos. And then I put tuxes. Do people wear those anymore? Yeah. Caden and his friends didn't do tuxes. Oh, interesting. Interesting. My son did a tux. Yeah. No, but all of him and his friends did like suits. Because remember Caden wore that pink thing. Yeah, it was really cute. I think either way is fine. I mean, but I mean, back in the day, you rented a tux everybody. Now it's just like look nice dress up. Yeah, it's just like whatever you need. And they all wear sneakers. We never did that. Yeah, they do wear sneakers. We never did that. We didn't. I know. My daughters will wear commerce. I'm not saying it's better than wear their commerce. I would much rather be in some ten of shoes. Me too. Girl. Me too. I did write down prom on a boat sounds kind of fun, though. I said the same thing. Except your hair would get so messed up. Like, not just you. I mean, everybody needs to be clear. Katie, your hair would be terrible. I hope you never's hair would get messed up. Like that would stress me out at that age. That would, yeah. Cause and you're taking pictures and you want to look perfect. And it was like not windy at all. And I'm like, okay, they're on the East Coast and are on a boat. It's probably cold and windy. Cold, yeah. I would think so. And so the scene then when Dawson and Joey are dancing on the boat, yeah, and everyone kind of notices them. Something like that kind of happened to me at a formal one. So I had a boyfriend, and this other guy, one throw under the bus, had a had a girlfriend, but she was at college. And so we kind of like, I guess had like crushes on each other and sort of knew, but like that was the extent of it. And my boyfriend was on a ski trip. And so we went not together, but like I went with friends, and he and my boyfriend just happened to be gone for winter winter formal. It wasn't even prom, it was like whatever. And so I just went with friends and he went. So we danced together a few times to the point that a few people like called us out uh at the dance. Shady bit not in front of everybody, but like they were like, uh, y'all need to cut it out, girl. And you know what I wrote down? I had the opposite end of this problem. I shared about this before. I said, the moment you see your date dancing with someone else, and I said the same thing happened to them, different scenario the last time. Right. It was reversed. It was reversed last year's prom for them. No, remember I told you about that when I brought I turned around and my date was not only dancing. Making up no, it wasn't doing that. I'm just saying. But it was like the chemistry was obvious, and we both didn't have significant others there. But first of all, like people also I'm like, why do those people really care? But you know, your teenage school is high school. Although, if I saw you dance with somebody else's husband a few times, I'd be like, Yeah, well, that is I feel like that's different. It is. I feel like that's different, and you'd be like, Have you had too much to drink? Like you'd be kind of concerned about me, maybe? I don't know. I don't know. I would be, but it I I hadn't thought of that memory in a long time. And then when I was watching that, I was like, Oh, I was I was them, yeah. Anyway, okay, so speaking of Dawson and Joey, when they were talking about them being each other's first love, I thought that was cute. It was cute. Because I think everybody remembers. Do you remember yours? Yeah. It's not your husband, right? Okay, and mine either. I didn't meet my husband until I was 26. Yeah, you were grown. Well, I know, but that doesn't mean I mean, yeah, I guess I would say like before then. Right. No, I f yeah, I fell in love before that. I know. Yeah, I think it's cute to think about it because I mean, and some people do marry their first love, which is that's great. That did not happen to me. Um it's funny because I think I hope that everybody can remember theirs with fondness. I didn't have a very nice breakup because remember, that's when I that was my fault. Yes, I remember being on a break. Again, like I told you, I'm not a good liar, so it's just I feel like I had different versions of falling in love. Do you know what I mean? Like I had like the person who I felt like that my future was gonna be with that I cared so much about that was kind of like whatever, but then I remember like the first time I like passionately, obsessively fell in love with someone, and then that didn't end so well on my end. Okay, like because they either didn't feel I don't know, yeah, and that was different. That was in college, okay, and then just kind of like smaller versions, other than that, I guess. You know, I think my college, my college relationship I had, that was a long term one. Um, I thought that I was in love with him, but I think now looking back, definitely not. It was a very toxic, yeah, kind of infatuation I think we had for each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I could feel I could see that. Um, but my little boyfriend in high school definitely was my first little love. Aww. But it's okay. Yeah, mine was in high school too. It didn't work out because I was shady. Look, but the girl he dated after me married and they had triplets. So see? Mine would have been shady. I said mine too. My first love did not have triplets, but went on to get married and have children and have a very lovely life. And even the obsessive one I found him a couple years ago on Instagram and he's married and has a couple kids. Living his dream. Great. Yeah. God bless. Bless and release, guys. Bless and release, and he still looks good. Damn him. Oh well. I don't know what my exes look like. Oh yeah. Well, I we don't keep in touch. Oh, I I wouldn't call me finding him on Instagram us keeping in touch, but I don't even do that because I don't. I don't. Sometimes I do. Because I'm curious. I'm just a nosy, nosy. Everybody does that. I honestly haven't never because oh, no. Well, what are you gonna do? All right. Um, oh, I just said Toby and Jack's kiss. Okay. I don't like Toby being so pushy to Jack. He's like, no, this is romantic. And Jack's like, no, it's just gonna be platonic. Like, shut up. Even if you feel like there's vibes, if he's telling you there's not, that's it. And then I I hated that they I hated that they made there be eventually. Me too. I hated that because Jack has been saying this from jump. I know, and he's been like, This guy rubs me the wrong way. I'm not attracted to him. And Jen even is still, remember, she's been trying to facilitate this the whole time. And then she does this for prom. Wait, hold on a second. Did I watch an extra episode? I don't know. We have one more after this. I thought we had two more after this. We have one more. No, we don't. Wait, promicide was um what was it? 17, 18, 19, 20. That's four. Did you do an extra? Did you do one past promicide? I did. Oh, I didn't. Because we did four. You did five. Hold on. One. Okay. Hold two. I know. We talked about three, four. But did we admissions? Stand Eastern Standard Time. I sure did. So then we had three episodes left. Okay. Well, maybe we should just watch them all. We probably should. Just do one big one for the season finale. How did I? I was like, I did not watch another one. I'm really confused, guys. That's okay. Save it. Save it. I don't even know. But to your point, Jack not being attracted to Toby and not wanting to be with Toby should just be the end of that storyline. No, I don't like because that makes it be like, oh, if you just keep on keeping And also like it also, if they weren't in a relationship, it shows you that like gay men can be friends. Hello? Yeah, can just be friends and like hang out or like have similar advocacy and not be attracted to each other.

SPEAKER_01: 25:07

Come on.

SPEAKER_00: 25:08

So to make it that, I don't know. I mean, I'm sure it was just because they were trying to be progressive and show a gay relationship, but like find someone he likes. I know, it just was weird. I don't like that. Also, the scene where Pacey is absolutely awful. Oh my god. But like it comes out of nowhere. That was weird. I fucking hated it. I didn't like it either. I was like, what? I even said I was sitting there, my husband like walked through the room right as it was happening. He was like yelling, and he was like, What's that? And I was like, Oh, it's Dawson's Creek. At one point, Amelia walks through. She's like, Is that Gilmore girl?

unknown: 25:42

I know.

SPEAKER_00: 25:44

It was funny. But anyway, I was like, I actually said, Okay, Joshua Jackson, but I was like, Calm down. I was like, what in the actual fuck? Like, how did it even it's bubbling over though? But no, because it doesn't make sense. Because then he's like screaming at her and saying all the stuff that she said. I'm like, well, that's not like she never even said any of this. Like, where did this come from? Yeah. That was weird. It was like nothing. Like he he kept saying, like, when I'm with you, you make me feel worthless. Like, I feel like I'm nothing. I feel like this because you do this and that. I'm like, but she doesn't even do that. Yeah. I hated that part. Yeah. That was weird. That was weird. Okay, well, we're gonna stop there. I can't believe I can't. Because I haven't watched the next one. And or we could do two and then the season finale one by itself and then just chat about the season. We did that last time. I know. Because it's always an odd number. I feel like we need to just wrap it all up. That's what I was saying. No, I mean like those, because it's I don't like the odd numbers. And I don't like just one, because then it's like what?

SPEAKER_01: 26:52

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 26:52

It feels odd. We've been recording for like five hours, and I'm like, I explain yourself. I know I need to eat food. All right. Well, thanks, listeners, and we hope you are having a wonderful holiday season so far. Yep. And we'll see you next time on Generation In Between