Dawson's Creek S4, E15 and E16: Brooks' Stuff and Joey's Lie

Is it okay to ask your ex about their sex life? Is it okay to lie when you answer?

Today we discuss two episodes from Season 4 of Dawson's Creek: Ep. 15, Four Stories, and Ep. 16, Mind Games. 

Dawson struggles with the "life" Mr. Brooks lived, while Joey and Pacey revisit their feelings about their first time. Jen also goes to therapy. 

We're watching Season 4 on Amazon Prime and Hulu.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Season Four Check-In
• 0:30 Four Stories Setup
• 1:20 Pacey And Joey After Sex
• 9:10 Consent, Communication, Consequences
• 14:30 Dawson And Joey’s Coffee Lie
• 19:40 Mr. Brooks, Grief, And Legacy
• 28:00 What Counts At The End
• 34:00 Jen’s Therapy And Boundaries

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

Hello everyone and welcome back to our Dawson's Creek rewatch on our Nostalgic of Problematic series. We're on season four, everybody, and we are zooming right along, even though we had a little bump in the road. A little small one. Because we have to record at weird times. And I have a feeling that's just going to continue till the end of the year. We're getting into the holidays for sure now. Yeah, so that's fine. But today we're going to talk about season four, episode 15 and 16. So let's get at it. Episode 15 is called Four Stories. And here's the summary. As Pacey and Joey analyze their first sexual experience, Mr. Brooks' death brings Dawson and Gretchen's relationship into focus. A psychologist press a psychologist presses Jen about her past while Dawson asked Joey if she had sex. That's a long story. That's a very long summary. But it was these four different storylines. So I guess that makes sense. I actually have not a lot of notes for this one because I was just watching. Yeah. I didn't have a lot of notes, and I felt I don't have that much either. Yeah. I I I didn't. So it's the setup of this one. Do you like when shows are set up like this where it's like four different stories happening at once and they flash between them or they do them in order? Sometimes. Movies are like that too, sometimes. I mean, it was fine. I I didn't have a I didn't care either way. Yeah. The very first one of the first scenes that was Pacey and Joey talking to each other about their first sexual experience. It took me a second, I was like, this scene is going on forever. Oh, yeah. Because normally in Dawson's, it's like boom and boom and boom and boom. But it was but then by the second, third, and fourth, I was like, Oh, I see why they're doing this. Um, okay, so we had in the opening a Ryan Felipe and a chicken soup, like of the soul, whatever references. Yeah. Which was so great. And Jack and Jen were both saying how they thought Ryan Felipe was cute, basically. I thought that was really funny. Well, but wait, I thought Dawson and Joey's was first. The intro, didn't the intro have um when they were like getting on the buses? Yeah. Oh, you're right. Yeah. That's what it was. Okay, okay. They were walking to the bus and they were talking about it. But then the first story was after the intro. Yeah, yeah. You're right. Well, let's talk about the first story because I thought like Joey was being kind of weird. Like, and I thought this plays so well into my three C's talk, right? For those of y'all who don't know, this is my trademark. Uh, I tell, I have told my oldest, and I will tell my youngest when it's about when it's time to tell him this. I'll just show him the recording of our podcast. Like, watch my podcast. But also, I there's three C's when I um talk to my oldest about becoming physically intimate with anybody. The first one is consent, always and forever, for from both people. And that's the whole time. Right. Not just the first time. Like, no, I mean like during whatever you're doing, you can change your mind and say, I don't want to do this anymore. That's fine. Consent always has to happen and you have to verbally say it. Um, then the second one is communication, you have to be able to talk about everything. Um, and the third one is consequences, obviously. You have to be able to wear protection and talk about it, and also the emotional consequences. If you can't do any of those things maturely, or if you don't think you're ready for that, you should not be taking that step. Joey obviously is not mature enough to talk about. Yeah, like of course, Pacey wants to know was it a good experience for her? Yeah. He has every right as her partner to ask her that. Now, did he say it weird? Correct. But also, he's a teenage boy, like, but he was trying. He was like, I just want to make sure, like, did how did you feel? Like, he wanted to talk about it afterwards, and he was comfortable doing that, right? And he really did want to know, which is a lot to be said for a 16-year-old boy, or however old he is, or any person for that matter, as that's young and um new to physical intimacy. And so I felt Joey was being weird, and I was like, see, she wasn't ready because she's not ready to openly talk about it. She seemed resentful to me. Yeah. Like she seemed sort of like she was acting like I did something I didn't want to do. Well, and then she was mad at him, and she was like, Oh, of course you're gonna ask, like you want to know, blah, blah. I'm like, Yeah, he should want to know if you enjoyed it. Yeah. He absolutely should, and and if you didn't, you should be ready to say that. You should be able to say words like, actually, no, I was uncomfortable, I'm regretting it. I feel like we should, whatever was whatever it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and totally I mean, like, and I thought that that was good. They showed him asking that because a lot of straight men, regardless of the age, don't do that. Right. Yeah, no, I thought that was good too. And yeah, she was acting weird, and I didn't I hate the term, and she said so she kept saying, like, oh, why? Because you did this and you did that, and she says, You deflowered me or whatever. And I'm like, he never even said that, right? It and I was like, That's such a gross term. Yeah, um, I mean, people actually use that term. Yeah, I thought it was I thought she she was exhibiting signs of feeling regret, but not able to communicate how she was feeling, and it was just coming off as very like um what's the word, dismissive of him, and very like, how dare you want to talk about sex? Right. That we have to talk about it. Yeah, it was it was weird. Yeah. Uh I did say Pacey's hair continuing to grow, and in a couple shots, like right by his ear, you could see the curl starting, and I was like, Oh, it's back. And then did you see she had the magazine that had Kate Winslet on the front, and it said Kate uh the Titanic? Kate Winslet, which this would have been way past 1997, so I don't know anyway, but that this one was filmed in the city. Yeah, but she was still so well known for that. For that, yeah, and she still is, but I mean, an Oscar for it. Yeah, that's true. So that's true. I thought that was fun, and then I liked despite them like having that banter back and forth, which was seemed a little annoying on Joey's end. I really liked when Pacey said to her, This, I could do this. Yeah, that was cute. Like, meaning like these interactions and waking up in the morning with you and like all of it. I just thought that was a really cute way to kind of I don't know, to say he cared about her. Uh yeah, because okay, I wrote this too when Joey was being sort of dismissive and abrasive toward him. She said, Well, how do you know you're not the first of many?

unknown: 6:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 6:32

Because he said something like, because he was like saying something kind, like, Yeah, well, you know, I know I'm the first, and you know, it you might be feeling some sort of way. And she's like, Well, how do you know you're not the first man? Like you're already like, what? We've moved on? What's happening? Like, if he said that, I don't know. Yeah, she would not like that. She was clearly like projecting something, yeah. But that's all I had for that particular section of the show. Okay. Speaking of Joey, and then why did she lie to Dawson? I asked that too. I asked that. I don't get it. Because she could have just said, like, it's none of your business, or that's between me and like anything, but why lie? My first question with that one, right, where her and um Dawson meet up and like start chatting was first, why is Dawson asking her this? It's none of his own. Also, also that. But then when they get to the heart of it, she lies. Yeah. And I said the same thing. Like, why didn't she just tell him? Yeah. And also he has a girlfriend too. So, like, right, but he was acting he was acting weird about it. He was acting like I'll be upset if you say you do it. That's what I'm saying. Like, he has a girlfriend. Yeah. So what And this whole like, you seem different. You look different. That hate. Did something happen specifically on the ski trip? I'm like, come on. A none of your business. And B, like, what? And that's also like kind of an antiquated thing, like to say, oh, you look different now. Yeah. You don't look different. That's what I was gonna say. Like, I also noticed, and I don't know if this is just the way they did her makeup in this one, but they did her makeup like more rosy. Like a lot of her close-up, she had like way more like blush. I'm telling you, it didn't know the point that it was noticeable. They did that. And then he's like, Oh, you look different, you look whatever. And I was like, Are we saying she's like changed color because she's now not a virgin? Like, what's going on? So stupid. Or she's got a glow or something. I don't know. It was weird. I didn't like it. It's stupid. All right, so then the part uh the story of the four, the big picture, is the the part where Dawson and Gretchen come back from the funeral and Graham's is in the shed, the garage, whatever, and it's got all of basically the collectibles from Brooks, which my first question, and I had to just suspend disbelief, was like all this work Dawson did on this property, painting fences, he's never been in this shed that has all these tools and like other stuff in it. But anyway, the point was that's where he stashed all this stuff, and so Grams is in there. Dawson's having a hard time with it, and the storyline, right, being like it's just stuff like that's what yeah, right, right, right. And I one of the big notes I had on this, I I was gonna see what you thought. I said, Is Dawson right when he's talking to Gretchen and he's like, There were only five people at his funeral, and if I hadn't crashed his boat, there would have been no one there because it was like me and you and Grams and my parents who really don't even know him, and how he thought that was really upsetting. And then Gretchen's response was like, Well, it doesn't like he got to be a hero early at the end of his life, right? He was a hero, and then maybe he had some years where it was not as great, but then he got it right at the end, I think is what she said. So, what do you think about all that? I think they're both right, because and I think they they can both be right in this matter because nobody wants to get to the end of their life and think nobody's going to miss them. But then also she's right and that it's never too late. Right. So I think they're both correct. Right. So I think we've all we all go through seasons of life, and it's not just one, probably multiple times, that we're probably not creating a lot of positive energy, and a lot of people maybe not want to be, or we don't have time to invest in other people, you know. Like, so there's probably seasons of our life where if we passed away, there'd be a hundred people at our funeral or maybe just ten, you know? And I don't think that I don't think that you should live your life like that. Like, right, how many people can I impact every day? Right, right, right. How many, how, how do I get to 400 people at my funeral? But I do think they're both right. I think because I always say if you're still breathing, you you have a chance to change things around. Like it's never too late to change yourself or to change your your thoughts or beliefs. It's never too late. And I think maybe that's what I hold on for people. I think you probably are the same way. Even though I'm like a natural-born realist, I wouldn't even say pet that leans on the side of pessimism. I think with humanity, I am not that way. Like I, which sounds weird to say, but I think there's always a chance for people. Like, I never want to fully write off anybody because I don't think that's fair. Because there's been times in my life people could have fully written me off. Right. For whatever reason. Right. And I'm glad they didn't. I think like we've talked about this before, like, no one wants to be judged by their worst moment. Oh, yeah. And that's how you're remembered for forever. And there may be people, same thing, I can think of people who probably in my past or even now think of me a certain way because of when they met me or one thing that happened. And it's you can't control all of that. Right. But you're right, there's still time with those people or with future people you're gonna meet or future situations to do better, you know. And I think I think the Brooks storyline was good because one, it woke Dawson up because Dawson's got all these big dreams, these Hollywood dreams, but so did this guy. And he let it sort of cloud like the more quote unquote ordinary things in life that he then missed out on. So it's a good reminder to Dawson as a young person hey, that stuff's cool and shiny and whatever, but like your family and your friends and how you treat people and all and your general satisfaction with life is more important. Yeah. So he got to see that, and then, like you said, to also Dawson played a pivotal role in the end of his life being as good as it was. Yeah. And I think that that, you know, that that can like Gretchen was saying, like that's that's what you should focus on, is that he did have it at the end and there weren't zero people there, and then he did kind of have a redemption arc, yes, in his own story. I agree. Yeah. And then so, so what do we think of the like lawyer that walks in and is like, I need to talk to you about it as well. So remember how I said there's like this weird trope storyline that's like everyone inheriting these huge homes and estates from like long-lost uncles and stuff. There's also this one where it's like all of a sudden you're like left a lot of money or something, which I think is probably what's gonna happen here. But I was talking to our friend of ours the other day who something similar is actually happening in real life to them. Okay. So, like, um, it was like an ancestral home in their family in the like Dominican or something that's been for sale for like 10 years. There's like all kinds of political stuff because like the politics down there are like really kind of crappy with the government trying to get the money and all this stuff. I think it's she said the Dominican, and it's been like this 15-year battle or something crazy, and her mom is about to inherit it and get all this money. It's like millions of dollars. Okay, so it does happen. If it happens, so it was so weird that that okay, I'm probably screwing a lot of that story up, but it's like a similar thing, and it was like it's been like it was in the family for like all these years, and I was like, that's so weird because we were just talking about how that doesn't ever happen and it's actually probably gonna happen in my lifetime. That's crazy, right? I love it. Well, okay. I'm not gonna say her name just in case you don't know people don't know her business that she's about to have the millions of dollars from another anytime soon, but maybe one day one day in her life. That's pretty cool. I know that's pretty cool. All right, so anything else on that little segment? Nothing. Oh, I the only other thing I had on that part was Dawson says to Gretchen, you smell good in a pretty girl kind of way. I was like, what does that mean? He's like, I don't even mean your perfume or your like shower gel or your shampoo. I mean just you in a pretty girl kind of way. I was like, what does that mean? I don't understand pheromones because you know, some people like uh like how their partner smells like sweaty and stuff. No, I don't like that. That's gross. I don't want to smell anybody sweaty. Please shower, please shower. And again, yeah. Do you know? Like, I don't understand the pheromones thing. But then other people, I mean, I mean, I have a very sweaty partner most of the time, and I think I I love his smell. So I don't get that. But you know what? I am very sensitive to smells. So like I think it must like I don't like if my kids are smelly, I don't want, I don't want to, yeah. And I also if I'm smelly, I don't want anybody to touch, like I don't want you to hug me. Yeah, like I'm very like so. It must be a sensory thing, but it might be a sensory thing. And like as far as I'll be like, oh, I'm all sweaty. It's like I don't care. I'm like, yeah, but I care. Right, right, right. Like, I'm glad you don't care, but I don't like that. I don't like it. Yeah. Yeah. But you like sweaty. Okay. I don't mind sweating, but not from everyone. Not from everyone, just from the kid's like, everybody's sweaty. Give me a hug. Come on. I'm ready for you. Okay, I have nothing on this episode. Okay, so the excess baggage is when Jen goes to therapy, which this this storyline is really kind of freaking me out. It's weird. Because it's like she's too overly this episode and the next, concerned about who her therapist is. I know, or psychiatrist or whatever he's supposed to be. Although I did laugh because she's like, You're a yacht lot younger than I thought you'd be. And I wrote, Does he look young? I was like, What? He looks old. Yeah, he looks adult age. And then when she kept saying homosexual over and over, that was really funny. She's like, He's a he's a homo he's a homosexual. And there's nothing wrong with are you up? She's like, I gotta stop saying homosexual. I know. I was like, what the going on? That was actually really funny. And then I said, Do people really lay on couches? Oh, I say, have you ever No, I have been to so many therapists. I have never laid on a couch. I thought it was interesting the way they had it set up in this one where he when she did that, he was behind her. Yeah, that's weird too. I've never he wasn't like looking at her, and I thought, well, maybe that's the point. So you you're not feeling like someone's like staring at you while you're trying to let your feelings out. Well, I mean, I have been to therapists where they let you choose where to sit. Like they have multiple sitting options in the but I've never like laying on a couch with your head back behind a desk, like as I'm laying somewhere. And then he was like, but that's like a very old school like psychiatric thing. Right. I don't think anybody really well gender tell us maybe. I've never, I've never, but I mean, I've never I've I've never I've been to like therapists, not psychiatrists, so I don't know. That's true. I don't know. That's a different if you know out there, tell us. Um, and then yeah, the last section we already talked about where doctors are. First of all, wait, I just have to laugh where you look at me, you're like, have you ever laid on a couch? What do you mean? And you're all of your therapies. Well, I mean, I have my experience. No, I know my therapy. Sorry, that was funny. Because I know you've seen more than one. She's like, I know you've been around. She's been around the therapy block, okay? Been on some couches. I mean, it's true. It's true, it's all true. Uh, okay, so the so then the final one, which we already talked about, Dawson and Joey run into each other because they both want to be alone, but then they hang out and then they get a coffee, and it's just so weird. And then that's the moment that she lies about the Pacey thing, which you know is gonna come back and bite her. When her and Pacey lied about being together, look what happened there. Listen, I was just talking to somebody the other day um because she had a friend like give her, like, text her some weird lie that was totally random and weird. And she was like, Why did she lie about this? And I was like, I don't understand why people lie because I feel like it always bites you in the ass. Yeah. Always. Even uh even a lie of omission where you just don't tell somebody a piece of something, it always bites you in the ass. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's weird. Anytime I've ever lied, it has always got me. And what I was wondering is, are they wanting us to believe, or what do you think? Is Joey lying because she doesn't want his feelings hurt, or is she lying because she wants him to keep holding on because maybe there's still a sexual future for them? I think that's what they they want us to not know. They want us to have those questions floating around, which is working. So we'll we'll remain in that question mode. Okay, let's step on to the next. This is uh episode 16, Mind Games. Summary is Pacey and Joey's efforts to spend a night together, create an opportunity for Dawson and Gretchen. Jen enlists Jack to help her spy on her therapist. Uh the first thing I wrote down, and I'm trying to remember what happened. I said, Joey needs to not put her hands on people. What does she do? Does she like push Pacey or something? Oh, doesn't she hit Drew? Oh, yeah. She shoves him and then she hits him. Yeah, I'm like, she needs to stop doing this. Because he said her and Dawson were the best couple. Yeah, and then and Pacey's like, I'll let you take care of it. She's stopped putting hands on people, Joey. That's not okay. Right. Silence is not the answer. Well, like he's not physically attacking you. No, no, when he kissed her, yeah, slap him. Sure. But you don't like what he said about uh your book. She was very quick with them hands. She she's quick. She showed you her hands. Yeah. Uh so what do we think about the school supposedly voting Joey and Dawson as the best couple? Stupid. Did Drew make this up? We don't know. We found out about the case. Oh, yeah, you're right. He did, yeah. I think when I wrote that down, I didn't even know yet. Yeah, I didn't know yet. Um, but I also thought it was an interesting way, the way that they do this a lot in the show where they're what they're talking about is really talking about like what viewers are saying. Yeah. And they did it with this. He's like, Drew's like, well, can we help that the people want Joey and Dawson and not Joey and Pacey? But I'm like, I did not know a single person back in the day that did not want Joey Pacey. Oh, I come on. Oh, I everybody that's what I'm saying. Everybody did. Nobody, nobody wanted Dawson. No, no. I knew lots of people who want who are team Dawson. Yeah. Okay. I did. I did. Um, okay, the age difference. Still a problem because Gretchen is 21, trying to spend the night at a 17-year-old's house where his parents are out of town. Like, if I'm 21, I do not need to be wanting to worry about that. Right. Like you have to go sneak into your parents' house because they're out of town. I'm 21 years old. Yeah. I'm a grown-ass lady. I agree. I thought that was weird. But then the flip side of that, with the Pacey and Joey, where they're trying to find a spot, and that's to be able to that is being a teen, which was relatable. I was like, man, I remember that. Like where you don't have your own place and you're not an adult. And even in college, when you're in a dorm. Hello, my kid, himself, and your daughter. So that's a weird combo. We just don't think about that. We're just not going to we're just gonna let them figure that out. What could go wrong? Like, well, um, so but I did think like you're right, that juxtaposition between that's illegal. Yeah. And in his parents' home. I didn't think about that. Oh, I did. I was like, what? Yeah, it's weird. I don't like it. And then she had like the PJs and the toothbrush in her purse. Yes. Although I do remember doing that myself. She's like, I just want to be prepared. Um, oh, I said not to a 17-year-old's house. No, no, no. You did the the pajamas and the toothbrush. Just toothbrush. Just toothbrush, yeah. You can wear anything. I didn't think I had to. I didn't think I had for pajamas. Okay, so the therapist asked Jen in this episode about like her relationships with boys and with girls. And he says to her, and I wondered what you thought, is it easier to be friends with girls? Sorry, I said it backward. Oh he asked, is it easier to be friends with boys? Meaning, like, because she says she has trouble being friends with girls. Do you think that it's easier to be friends with males either at that age or now? Why do I not? No. Okay, so I know girls who say that. Like there it's easier to be friends with boys, but I feel bad for them because there is something there with the trust thing, because for me, like I feel like women, f females, women, we can only understand the things we go through with each other. Men will never be to be able to sympathize with you about your period, about giving birth, about being objectified as women, um, as not having legal rights over your body. They can't, they can sympathize, sure, but they cannot understand. And I guess maybe because I grew up in a house of women and I've always had like my girlfriends have always been family to me. I just I feel bad for women who are like don't have a lot of close girlfriends because I feel like they're missing out on that womanhood bond. That's why I like teaching uh group fitness classes that are mostly women, is because it's you can be yourself. We all have the same issues. It doesn't matter how old we are or what size we are, we've all got the parts and pieces, and we know what happens. And I feel like it's important to have women of all generations to learn from each other. Yeah. I agree. What say you? I I think I was thinking about this. I agree with you. I don't feel like I had many close, like good, close girlfriends in high school. It really wasn't until college that I really felt that. And then I didn't have sisters, and my mom and I weren't very close. Like we're fine, but like we weren't close till I was an adult. Yeah. And so I think I but I also wasn't close with boys either. So I feel like I was just sort of like an isolated being for a long time for how social I am and everything. And I always have been. But you didn't have to be. I never felt like I had like people I could really trust, people that, and this I'm sure this is again something to talk to a therapy. My therapist about um that people didn't really like me, that I wasn't really part of something. Like, even now, I'll talk to you about stuff and I'll be like, oh, well, I didn't I didn't get invited to that, I get invited to nothing. Now, granted, you invited me to something that I'm declining, so maybe that's why I don't get invited, do you? Y'all heard that? But I'm having a big old New Year's bash, and she said, I ain't coming. I was like, Well, I will never forgive you. And she's like, She's like, next time you say no one invited. You hang out all the time. So I do not take it personal. That's fine. But um, we I I and so I was thinking about that, and then I was also thinking about like in the workplace, so this is a little different, but I've always done really well in like traditional job, like traditionally in the workplace, if my boss was a man, I've done not great if my boss was a woman. There's something to dive into, yeah. And I don't know if it's that I'm such a strong-willed person that like I don't do well. Like, with am I acting different if my man's a boss? Or am I not friends? It's not, but I was thinking about just like dynamics, female dynamics, like the dynamic of a female male versus a female female. Of course, the workplace is different because your living's on the line, your career's on the line. That's a different you're expected to be a different version of yourself. That's a different thing. But it just made me think of it. Well, that makes me sad that you didn't have uh you know, I wasn't close to my sister or my mom growing up, but I was in a house of women. Right. And I always had close girlfriends, um, and so did my sister and my mom. Like, especially when my mom got divorced, like her and her little divorcee girlfriends would like, you know, do their hen parties or whatever the hell they did as divorcees in the 90s. Which there were a lot of them. And, you know, and then I I don't know. I guess because I did have like a shitty, like tumultuous home life. Uh my friends were my like escape. So, and they were there were times in my life that my friend group were way more of a family to me than my legit family. Like I'd I I can remember spending weekends with my girlfriends at their house so I could avoid being at mine. So that makes me sad. And I mean, I even struggle now, like, even just with like again, business, but like people who work with me who are also my friends, me just not allowing people to do more sometimes because I'm just used to even in my home, like there's just stuff. My husband would be like, Oh, well, I can help with that, like whatever it is. A lot of it's financial for whatever reason. He'll be like, Oh, you should have told me about that. But see, that's that's not friendship. But but even with my husband, I don't want him in the sphere of that stuff, even though that's stuff we should be talking about. I think it's an example, but like that. I just want to handle everything myself, and emotions are included in that. So you don't want to have that community. I think I do, but like somehow. I think my default is like guess where you need to go. To the couch. To the couch, you go. To the couch, I go. Well, no, I because I really do feel like I feel like I mean, I but I feel like you do have close female friendships now. I do, yeah. I've had to work at that, but I do. But I think you do, and I think, you know, for me, it's easier to just I've to just I've always kind of been like this. It's easier for me to just let everything out. But I think it's easier for you to not. Correct. Like I said, it's my default. Yeah, it doesn't mean it's the best thing to do, but it's what I generally do. Right, and neither is mine. Like everybody don't need to know my bullshit as this all that you meet me. Like, but for me, it's so much easier, like it's just easier for myself. That's why I always said, especially as like a military family, I always said I always wanted to just like kind of make a resume and like hand it to people and be like, here's all my bullshit when I meet you. If you like, if you're down with being a friend with me, then like let me know. If not, like I'd rather you just know ahead of time. Send me a text, my number's at the bottom. That's why I also am all I try to always be myself on social media and like what you see is what you get, because for me that's an easier thing. Yeah. And but it's not always great, not everybody has to try to do it. Sure. I mean, there's pros and cons to both, I guess. But like with friendship, like that's my default is always just I'm gonna tell you everything immediately, and which is not always a good idea because I have had people be not trustworthy and I trusted them too soon. Sure. And it bit me in the ass later, you know, not really so much now in my 40s, because what are you gonna do to me? Like whatever. But you know, in younger years, like it it's bit me in my ass, or like I've confided in them something, and then they ran their mouth, and so that's not great. So I get it. I think I think you're getting better about that, about letting your growing down. And it's interesting because I feel like I first started to form some of those really better female relationships when my mom and I started to get closer, which is interesting, but it's also the timing of it because I was an adult and it was the age, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the zone. Yeah. So yeah, I know, and I I do. If you're a female out there who says, I'm just better friends with guys, I am so sorry. And I always want to be like taking you under your wing and show you what womanhood as a community can be. Right. Because in fact, I haven't had it. Because you haven't had it. And if you haven't had it, you don't know what you're missing. Right. Because it's beautiful. I mean, especially like I think I real really realized that once um I became a mom. And nobody gets the the sheer wonder and horror of it. Right. Like other moms. And that's why if you get a group of moms together, at some point you're going to talk about be like your labor or your which sounds very boring to people who aren't mothers. And I'm sorry. And I try to be cognizant of that if I'm around people who are not moms, who are women, to not go into all that. Because it can be like, okay, well, I don't know what the fuck y'all are talking about. Like, you know, but it is a, I think that really made me realize, oh, yeah, that's a very shared thing. But even I think maybe when I was like in puberty is when I really appreciated like girls being like, we could be like, I don't know how to use a tampon yet. How do you do this? Or like, you know, or like, is it weird that like this and that happened? Or how do you shop for bras? Like stuff that you some people can talk to their mom about. I couldn't. But yeah. But that's why you have your friend. Anyway. That's why you have friends. I'm glad that you I'm sorry that you didn't have that growing up, but I'm glad that you're now becoming like now happy. Feeling that. Yeah. Thank you. I am too. I am glad that you're not happy. And if you're somebody out there who never had good girlfriends, let me know. I'll show you the way. She has a resume for you. No, I'll show you the way. I will say, like, don't I and I get it because people are like, well, girls can be terrible. Well, so can boys. Oh, sure. I mean, people can be terrible. Yeah, human personality. It's not a feel because that's something I can think of. Uh one conversation in particular with a military spouse, and they were like, they were like, You're the first female friend that I've had because girls can be shitty and terrible. And I'm like, Yes, but so can other people. Like it's not just, it's not just towards women. You had a horrible experience where it was a female. Yeah. But I can tell you that boys, I have a parent of two, two males, and they go through the same stuff. They go through the same stuff. Yeah. It might look a little different, but it's the same. Yeah. They can be backstabbers, they can be turds. Right. Friendship-wise, I'm talking about. Yeah. So anyway, well. We could have a lot of things. Hold on. I asked that. Uh okay. So the next thing, you know, when Jen is quote unquote, according to Jack, stalking her therapist, she wants to know what he's doing. She was. And and like her reasoning is he knows all this stuff about me, but I don't know. And you shouldn't know. You shouldn't. That's the point. And he would not be chill with that. No, not like that's kind of like running under her. He would be like, don't run into me again in public. Like, no. Your therapist should not be your friend. No. But did you hear the Promise Keepers reference? Yes. I have not thought about Promise Keepers in a long time. But it was, I don't even know how to describe it. It was a group, it was men only, right? And it was basically a conservative Christian men's group that had like conferences and meetings. And so she says, Well, I don't know. He could be a promise keeper. And I was like, oh my God, promise keepers. I don't even know if they still exist. I'm sure they do, though. In some entity. The whole thing. We can do that. We'll keep going, though. We'll just keep going. Um, what did you think about Jack's vampire/slash gay person comparison? He was like talking about how vampires and gay people are similar. They're hot, they come out at night. Like, I forget what else he said. Calm down. And I was like, okay. You know, I could see a vampire. I could see it. I figured you would think that was funny. And then and then when Jen's like, well, so first of all, it's a weird question to ask Jack. Well, I will say there is a lot of um gay undertones and a lot of vampire lore. Yeah. Like Anne Rice, especially. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. So Jen says, which is a weird thing to say to a gay person. She's like, she's like, how do you know more about gay culture than me? How did you get ahead of me in knowing about gay culture? But then he says, Sex in the city. Oh, which is funny. That's the joke. But it's funny, and then also kind of icky. Yeah. Because some of some of what they talk about. Like, I was listening to a podcast not too long ago that talked about how there was so much um, like how Carrie's character had so much um like uh what's the word I'm looking for? Like stay like like anti-LGBTQ stuff in it. One episode particular that Alanis Morissette was in. Do you remember this one? And about how she like she was like, everybody's by these days, just pick one. Oh yeah. I remember like it was very problematic. And then like a lot of transphobic stuff, and I had never thought about it then, but looking back now, it's like, oh, like we thought it was so open, but actually it kind of played into some problems too. Yeah, you're right. Oof, I know. Oof. Um, oh, the moment when Gretchen realized that Joey lied to Dawson. Yeah. Because Dawson's talking to her, and she's like, Well, how do you know that they haven't done it? And he's like, She told me, and just yesterday, or whatever it was, and her face, like, yeah, like, well, shit. Because isn't that the worst? When you know something, another person doesn't, you're like, fuck, do I say something? But then you don't, it's none of your business to say anything. It sucks. We've all been there. And then she's got like the um added nuance that Dawson's her boyfriend. Pacey's her brother. Oh, so that was really weird. I felt bad for her because that we've all been there. And then I said something about Dawson apologizing. Maybe this was when he, I think this is when he apologized to Joey for asking her about Pacey, maybe. Yes. He was like, I shouldn't have, I shouldn't have asked you that. And I'm like, Oh yeah, you were like, And then he's like, but I'm so glad I did. Or he said something like, I'm glad I know. Yeah, I don't know if it was there or earlier, but he says something like, He's like, Oh, I am relieved that you guys didn't. And I'm like, come on, Dawson, you're digging yourself in a hole, buddy. Like, although she did, because she freaking I know why. If she didn't want to tell him, then she should have just said, like, it's really none of your business. Yeah, which is she's a hundred percent entitled to do. Absolutely. Because you don't have to tell somebody your business. Never. I just noticed your Florida State Stanley. It's actually Cadence. He left it at home. I was gonna say, when did you procure it? I did it. My sister sent it to him when he got accepted. Oh. And um, he didn't take it, he's not like a big Stanley cup writer. Got it. So he would use it at home and then he left it. And I was like, ooh, I like that. It's ginormous. It is huge, and it's really cute. Yeah, it's and it's like it's like proud mom moment. Yeah. So for those of y'all who want to know what she's talking about, this is my ginormous Florida State Stanley. It's really cute. If Caden sees us, which he never will. Sorry, I'm using your cup. He won't see it. You left it at home. I'm also using one of your sweatshirts. I love it. I love it so much. Awesome. Well, thanks guys for watching season four with us or not watching and listening to us talk about season four. And we will see you next time here on Generation in Between.