Dawson's Creek, S4 E9 and E10: Kisses Under the Mistletoe

The lights are twinkling, the town’s buzzing, and everything feels warmer in the holiday season — until it doesn’t. Our Dawson’s Creek S4 rewatch hits episodes 9 and 10, where a Christmas party, a high-stakes college dinner, and a single kiss yank everyone into uncomfortable honesty. 

Join us as we rewatch Dawson's Creek, Season 4, on Hulu and Amazon Prime. 

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Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: S4 E9–10
• 2:30 Holiday Time-Jump & Gail’s Pregnancy
• 6:40 Joey’s College Dinner Stakes
• 12:10 Mr. Brooks: Mentors, Regret, Resolve
• 18:45 Fashion, WB Meta, And Party Planning
• 24:20 Grams, Jen, And Silent Treatment Wounds
• 33:10 Mistletoe Kiss And Age Gap Tension
• 39:30 Pacey Steals The Room, Joey Pays The Price

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

Hello everyone and welcome back to our Dawson's Creek rewatch in our series of nostalgic or problematic. We are on season four, and today we're gonna talk about episodes nine and ten. Um, we're about halfway through the season. Yeah, this one seems like it's going fast. It's because it's not bad writing. That might be it. Yeah. Like every episode is good. I think, yeah. Every episode so far I've really liked it. It's been good. Yeah, it's been good. Um, so we're gonna start off with season four, episode nine, called Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, which is just fun. Cute. Um, Dawson seeks Mr. Brooks' advice on becoming a director. Joey takes Pacey along to a dinner hosted by an exclusive college. Yes. You know what's weird? When I saw the name of this episode, I swear there was already an episode with that name. I didn't look it up, but I was like, didn't they already name one this? So there must be one with a similar name. Are you sure? No, I'm not, actually. But I was like, don't we already have an episode with his name? But I'll look that up and I'll loop back. I it there could be, but and I'll tell you what. Because it was the name of his book. Yeah. Or name of a book, not his book. A book, yeah. Not not Brooks' book, but yeah. Yeah. Anyway, all right. So um I just said opening scene with Gretchen, but I don't know what I was saying about it. The Christmas party? Well, we do get to that. Is that is that what she is it writing that opening scene? I think so. Okay, maybe. But how is it Christmas already? I was like, how did we get to Christmas? I thought the same thing. And also one of my early notes is Gail is really pregnant. Like, I know. That's like it happened super fast. Yeah. I was like, whoa, okay. But it's TV, so and it's also halfway through the season, so she's gotta have the baby by the end of the season. So they've gotta move move some things along, I guess. Yeah. Um Joey doing her homework on the dock. And she's like, I still uh Mrs. Valentine's like, um, excuse me, stop studying for your GED. And she's like, Um, I still have 15 minutes till I start. And then the like guy from the college, what college was it? Did they ever say okay, I didn't think so. They have a lot of like fancy things that happen in Capeside. Yeah, he's like, We're uh So this guy, the storyline is this man from the fancy college, unnamed, is having this big event at the yacht club or country club, whatever it is. And Joey happens to be someone invited to it because it's supposed to be talking to like really promising applicants. I love how you always summarize it. Well, what if they haven't seen it? Well, then why would they listen to like it's not our job to tell you what happened? We talk about what we want to do. I don't mind talking about what happened. I don't mind. No, I didn't say you mind. I'm just saying it's funny because I'm like the whole point. You're like, yeah, I know. I watched it as well. Like, why are you watching telling me? And I just like it's like if people want to know what we're talking about, then go re-watch it with that. Good point. Okay, all right. Everybody out there that's like that's stupid, Danny. Let her do it. Uh I'm not gonna let her let her let her be. I'm not gonna stop her. But sometimes I'm like, sometimes I wonder, like, is she saying that? So I remember like she's scared, I forgot. Like when you said they were twins last time. No, because that happens. I really do forget. Sometimes I'm reminding myself too. Well, some like this guy is connected because of this, and that's why they're there. But yes. Um, so anyway, that's why he's there, and that was like a whole interesting scene where he's like basically saying to Mrs. Valentine, like, how great Joey is, and and like making her look bad. Yeah, it's like okay. And then yeah, Gail's uh really pregnant. There was a line, I don't know if you caught it, where they're talking about Dean Kane and they call it St. Homo's Fire. Yes. What movie was that? I don't know. I don't know. I would have to look it up. They said the gay Dean Kane movie. I'm looking it up right now while we're talking about it. Which is interesting because isn't Dean Kane like specifically um recently been in the news because he volunteered to join ICE? What? Yeah. No, I didn't know. So that was an especially relevant um comment. Because I was like, oh, Dean Kane was in a gay movie? What's it called? Look, I literally put what'd you type? Dean Kane gay movie. I don't know. It said the Broken Hearts Club. When's it from? 2000. Okay, that must be. Dak Shepard was in it too. Nice. Uh let you want me to read this. And Billy Porter. Is that Billy Porter? Hold on. We gotta, we gotta look this up, guys, because now we're now we're sucked in. Now we're in the round. Timothy Oliphant, Dean Kane, John Mahoney, Zach Braff, Andrew Keegan, Billy Porter. Hello. What was it about? Um I'm just like, Jennifer Coolidge is in it. Justin Thoreau. There's all kinds of people up in this movie. Kerse Smith was in it. That's why they referenced it. That's why. There he is. He was in it. That's why they referenced it. Okay. Okay, I'll I'll tell you what it's about. Um hurry up. Okay. An insight into the turbulent lives and loves of a gay clique based in Los Angeles. But they're all in baseball outfits. So I don't know what that's about. The gay baseball clique from Los Angeles. But now I want to watch it. Yeah, I mean, it actually sounds kind of good. And look at all those stars. I mean, I love Billy Porter. I do too love him. Have you ever watched the show Pose? Yes. Oh my God. I love that show so, so good. All right, anyway. So, yeah, so Dean Kane is kind of But that's why they said it because Kara Smith was in. Right. Okay. Makes sense. That's really funny. I like funny. Um, and then I asked, is Graham's right about Jen? But why am I asking that? I wrote these really early, guys. Well, they talk there this they were talking about her college, like about her not applying to college. So something she said. Something she said about But did you see the big giant poly cold poster? Yes. And it was her new album, which is why that was on there. I loved it. That's so cool. I love that. Um, and then when Joey is trying on a dress for the dinner or whatever, and Gretchen's with her. Yeah. So they're like at a store. And she says Gretchen says something about, oh, there she is, so beautiful, she just can't help it, or something like that. I don't know. I just thought that was an interesting line, but I was also like, that kind of describes Katie Holmes. Yeah. Like she just is. Some people are just pretty bitches. Yeah, I know. I say that in a nice way. Oh, yeah, in a nice way. Because, like, listen, when we wake up in the morning, it takes work. Yes. And even when we're looking hours, you guys. Just to be presentable to you all. This amazing. Okay. Like, yes. We are not Katie Holmes when we wake up. Let me just put away. But yeah, she's right. But I liked how she said, as long as Pacey doesn't wear his camo pants, and then the next scene he had on the camo pants. Yeah. And then I was like, that is a piece of fashion history that never needs to come back. I had a pair of camo cargo pants. Did you? Uh yeah, I think I like Capri lines. Oh, okay. You remember the Capris with the ties at the bottom? Oh. You had a camo pair? They were like light color camos.

SPEAKER_01: 6:57

Oh, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 6:58

They're kind of coming back. I think it was Hollister, I think. Yeah. Has like, it's almost like it's not like the like army camo, but it's like a very faint beige camo. It's like beige and gray. That's what I had. That's what you had. Okay. Gross. And um, yeah, that's not fashion. I had those last time. Camo is not fashion. Fair enough. I don't I like that line though. Oh, I thought you were gonna say I like camo pants. I mean, she's gonna have some on with it. I am indifferent. I don't I am indifferent. You just don't have very strong feelings about it. And that's I do not. And some stuff just really bothers me. I get it. I don't know why. I totally understand. We did figure out the mystery of the denim short. We did. And so this must have something to do with that. No, it's just, I mean, I'm married to somebody in the military, like camouflage is for like a purpose, and it just like a uniform. It just looks weird to be fashion. I don't know. I get I get that. All right. Um, okay, so my biggest issue with this whole episode, okay, is that Gretchen offers to do this party. Oh, yeah. And I'm like, wait, the party is this weekend? I know. It's in like three days or something. And it was huge. They invited the whole fucking town. And and did you catch a line where she goes, I'll call everyone and invite them? I was like, Whoa, can you imagine calling everyone to invite them to a party nowadays? You just send like a group text or a little flyer invite. Yeah. Um, but I was like, wow, she really turned that party around quick. Good. All right, Gretchen. Um, speaking of parties, I think I'm gonna have a New Year's party. Oh, that'd be fun. Yeah. So mark your calendar now. I will definitely come. Also, you know, our friend OP is having Halloween parties. Oh, I didn't know that. You were on the invite and you probably didn't see it. I was like, I better say something to Katie. Is it on Facebook? Or is it okay? But he sent it out a long time ago, so it probably got lost. Okay. I'll check it out. I'll check it out. Is it Halloween weekend or is it on Halloween? Because it's on Friday. Right, right. Oh, okay. I'll check it out. Well, that sounds fun. And he lives by you. Right down the street. I've never been to his house, but okay. Right down the street. Um, and now I just told his whole fucking day. He lives down the street. It's coming up. This episode will be live before the party. So uh you want you an invite? Let us know. Um, okay, so Dawson is avoiding the question, why do you want to go to film school? No, he said he just couldn't come up with an answer. Yeah. He wasn't really avoiding it. He just couldn't. He didn't know what to say. And I get that. Yeah. Because he said it, I don't remember if it was this episode or the next one, where he's like, Sometimes the things you love are hard to explain. Something like that. And I'm like, Yeah. Because sometimes you do love something and you don't know why. It's just like, I just do. It just sparks your interest. Yeah. And it's hard to say why. I'm definitely in the thick of this, um, because it's college application time for my senior now. And so she has me reading and rereading her essays, and then there's like a regular essay that's good. We got that good to go. But then this morning she wanted me to quickly look over, it's like one of them was like, Why do you want to go to this school? And it's like, I don't, I don't know. It's a good school. Yeah. And so we're just trying to like, I'm like, you could because um she was talking about the college my husband went to. I was like, Well, say your dad went there, yeah. Like, you know, whatever. But it was kind of like also like with a question like that, the essay's different because the essay's about you. And so that could be as different as the people that do it. You know what Caden read his about? He never let me read it, but he did let Troy read it. Because Caden Um about um it was he had to write about like facing challenges. He talked about being a military kid and how hard that was moving around all the time. Look at him, and Troy's like, it made me feel so bad. Well, and I said, Well, you I mean, you grew up in the military, it was hard. Well, also, like, it's supposed to be challenging. That's the prompt. Right. You're not gonna be like, I moved all the time and it was great. Yeah. Some people may think that. Some people might. But he said, Yeah, it's hard to read. But I was like, Well, at least you got to read it. I mean, you get to read it. I know. Because he knew I'd be like, Oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah, it's my fault. Well, honestly, my daughter's essay was about like um, you know, being in a combined family and like being the only one of her kind, like all her siblings have a blood sibling. Oh, and she's the only one that doesn't. She has half siblings. Right. But same thing, like I'm she told me it was gonna be about, and then she didn't ask me to read it, and I was like, that's probably for the best. She had a few teachers read it, and then at the very end, she was like, Oh, she doesn't know. Can you read it? And I and I was okay because I kind of had a I think if I didn't have a heads up, it would have affected me more. And essentially she was saying, like, how like interacting with different family dynamics and different siblings and stuff, because she has seven siblings. Yeah. She has six sisters and a brother. Yeah. So she see her other siblings? Not often. Not often. And she kind of talked about that and um just how it's kind of given her like a different view on things and like how that's gonna be helpful in her career and yada yada yada, like how you tie it all together. But my point was with the ones that aren't the personal essay, with the ones that are like, why do you want to go to school here? Yeah. I would think if you're the person reviewing those, they sound the same after a while. Yeah. Like, what are you even looking for? I know. Question. What is someone gonna say that sets them apart from someone else? I think they're just looking to see if you can even do it. Like, I don't even think they care about the content. They're just trying, yeah. Honestly, I think they're just looking. Can you put two thoughts together in a creative way?

unknown: 12:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:20

You know, yeah, and it looks nice, and you actually did the assignment that you were supposed that you were asked to do and yeah, and it shows that you took the time to do it. That's probably it. Um, because I was reading it like, what are they looking for? And eventually it's like, whatever, whatever you said's fine, and you have punctuation and everything spelled right, okay. And it's only 200 words. Yeah, it's super short. So it's like anyway. All right, so oh, I just said in the hallway at school, I love Joey's yellow sweater. You always love her sweaters. I love them. I think I had them all, probably, but it looked so soft, and it was that like um that like pale yellow.

unknown: 12:59

Oh, I loved it.

SPEAKER_00: 13:00

Well, I noticed her hair. Uh huh. Like, I was I was like, her she has straightened hair in this episode. Usually it's not straightened, it was pretty straight. It was like straightened, and she you could tell she was trying to grow out bangs that she had, she must have had it for a roll for something else. And she, you you know, you're growing out bangs right now, and you have to do this whole like try to blend them with the rest of your hair, but in some scenes are like coming out. Yeah, I think we've all as people with longer hair, whether you're male, female, or non-binary, if you've ever grown your hair out with bangs, you know that struggle. It's such a struggle, and just growing your hair out in general, if it's not the length you want it to be, but it's not short, but it's like in the middle. That's where I'm at these days. And you can't do a ponytail, but you know, just like wherever it is. It's annoying. I noticed that so many have us had that hairstyle. Yes. I loved when Jen and her grandma or Grams were having a little argument when the presents came from Jen's parents, and Jen says, Mary effing Christian. I know, and Grams is like, I know. I thought that was I thought I thought that that Grams is just being really hard on Jen this episode. It felt like it. Yeah. She was like not talking to her. And then there was like the part where she's like, or maybe it was the next episode where she's like, No matter what, I'm always here for you. But you've been holding it. Like, well, now you are lady. I don't know. Like, I don't like so I do not parent correctly, and I am a yeller and I have a hot temper, so I have to apologize to my kids a lot of times. I mean, I do not like I just let it fly, but I mean, when I can't control it, when that happens, I I have to apologize to my kids a lot and to my husband. But my mom did this thing. I can't feel like I can say all this now because she's dead. So like uh my mom would give us the silent treatment as children. So she when she would get mad about stuff, she would just not talk to us for a few days at all. Like, just not as kids. Like my sister and I would talk about this, even mostly it was when I was a teenager or something. Yeah. And she would say, I'm so mad at you, I can't talk to you. And she wouldn't, and I don't mean for like an hour, because we've all been there where we're like, I need a minute. You just need to process, yeah. I mean days. Dang. She would ignore us. So anytime somebody's mad at me and they don't talk to me, I panic because that's what you think of. Yeah, it's like, no, no, no, let's just hash this out and move on. Because my mom would also hold on to things. So, like, anytime we would get in trouble, like, and she and she was a yeller too, unfortunately, which is probably why I am. And my sister's not, so that's interesting how we each got the opposite. But she would be yelling at you for like, say, I got in trouble for a bad grave test, or like I was being a smart ass, or whatever. She would bring shit up from months before that I thought was done, and we had moved on from, and she'd be like, She would yell at me and then leave my room, and then she would come back and be like, and remember last in August when you did this and that, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I thought that was done. Like, I apologize. I thought, so we were never knew what was still being fussed at. So whenever I see those things on TV, this makes sense. When like I was like, Graham's is like just lingering. Yeah. And that is hard on kids. She's the adult. Right. You're the one that has to, even if it's uncomfortable, approach the thing or or process your feelings and and then then you can. I mean, look, I'm going through it with one of my kids right now. We didn't even talk about it before we started recording. And I tend to, I wouldn't say silent treatment, but I tend to close down and be like, fine. Well, but that's just move on. But like eventually, I can't just be like, well, I don't want to talk to that person about whatever. Like, you know, you have to come back to it and be the adult about it. Well, because you have you either have to figure out a way to move on, forgive, conflict resolution or whatever. But like, yeah, and then you have to, if you let something go, you have to really let it go. You cannot bring it back. You really do. Yeah. And my mom never did. She was a grudge holder till the day she died. And you there was no, I don't think there was not a lot of forgiveness in her, or she didn't have the ability to move past things. She just didn't. She didn't have a skill set. And she never really cared enough to try and develop that. And you know, that's super hurtful, but also like there must be something in how she developed that made her that way. 100%. We are the result of what happened to us. Generational cycles and all the things, yeah. As adult, as an adult though, I had a therapist tell me this one time. You get to make a choice. Oh, yeah, on if what has happened to you defines you in a good way or a bad way. And you gotta move on, like you have to move on from that. And um, I think a lot about everybody's parents. Sure. And I think everybody's parents try to do better than their parents did, right? In one way or another. Right. Um but if you don't address the things in yourself that weren't done well, like my kids are listening I do plenty of shit wrong. Oh god, me too. They're gonna have crap, they're gonna have to come like figure out on their own, like to do better than Tori and I have done. Sure. But a therapist told me, like, you can't you have to eventually make the choice in that case to stop the cycle of that kind of stuff continuing to happen. You have to make the choice. And I think what's frustrating is when people don't. Sure. Sure. I think, yeah, and I think you have to have the realization too. It's interesting because my husband and I were talking last night about he was saying when he was younger, he kind of told a family story, basically about a family member who um, when him and some other kids would like do sleepovers in the family, would just scream at them. And he goes, and now that I think about it, like for being loud or whatever, he's like, We were just like laughing and being kids, and they were family members I saw like once a year. And he's like, That was crazy, like, and I was like, Yeah, and he goes, but then right away he's like, But he was from a time that was like this, and yada yada yada. And it is, you know, if you're trying to sleep and kids are being loud, but if you can look at it in a perspective and go, yeah, but they only see their family and they only get to hang out one night every 12 months, it's your job as the adult. That's the thing, too, that's very frustrating with people, is and my mom had all the resources and all the things to get handles on that, and she just chose not to do it. Sure. Uh, and that is what it is, and that's why I think my sister and I are so determined to not fall into things like that, is because it's very frustrating. Like, while you can recognize, like Brant can recognize his adult, his grown-up family member. Oh, well, I he had this. Okay, but that that might be the reason, but that's not an excuse, right? Right. That might be the reason, but he can move on from that. That's where you have to say that's his that was his job as the adult, not the kids, to to be quiet, right? Right. So look at me. Give me awesome. Look at you, give your advice out. I love it. Love it. Like, Danny, that is wrong. She's like, girl, just just the disclosure, the disclaimer is it's your opinion. Yeah, but but you've had professional hope to that. I have seen multiple therapists in my life. Uh I I I think everybody should go to therapy at least a little bit. 100%. You know, I agree. All right. So, oh, another really good line was when Gretchen was talking to Dawson, and she says she's telling him, you know, well, this is why you want to join film school because you want to win this award and do that and snag one of the girls from the WB. Yeah. I loved that. And I actually thought, and I meant to look it up, but maybe I will after this. Was he dating someone from a WB series at the time? Or either way, it was a photo. Right. Yeah. Right? I think they were. Yeah. I'm almost positive that's where I watched it on the WB. Yeah. Because they were on the same same channel as Buffy and Charmed. Yeah. Oh that's all WB time. Yeah. Um, okay. I speaking of uh therapy, the guidance counselor is just at the Christmas party. That was really funny. She's like, I'm so proud of you, Jen. And I was like, why is she here? Although Mitch does work at the school. Oh, true. But also, didn't what Jack and Grams did be illegal? They like applied to colleges for her. It's like the celebrity scandal. Like they used Jack used her own writing, like he did, but like it's still illegal. Because you sign shit that's like, yeah, that you're saying, like, this is truthfully me. Yeah. I was like, that's not really how it works. Nah, great. That's not how it works. Nah. That was funny. I said that the storyline in this one with Mr. Brooks is actually really sweet. Um, he uses the term when he's talking to Dawson because Dawson's like, I'm trying to figure out how to answer this question about film school. And he calls it a crisis of faith. Yeah. Brooks does. He's like, How old are you? 15? And he's like, I'm 17. And he's like, You're too young to have a crisis of faith. No, I think Dawson said crisis of faith first. He said, I'm having a crisis of faith. And then he's a good one. And that's why he was like, bro, come on now. Like, it's well, I just thought it was funny that they made Mr. Brooks' character, he was a filmmaker and his best friend stole his girl. I I was gonna say the same thing. And that made him quit and move all the way back, which it might as a young person if you were that upset about it. But I was like, boy, like I yeah, and it was too much of a parallel. I mean, we've I mean, I did lots of stupid things for when I was young. I would have quit college over less than that. Girl. Um I just said that Pacey looked really cute dressed up in that like the like it was almost like a t-shirt under the thing. He looked really cute. Yeah, and I said Drew looked handsome, I know. In that tux. He's not bad looking. He's not bad looking, which makes it worse. I know, which makes it worse, yeah. I put I put um, I said, are we thinking Dawson and Gretchen is weird because of the ages? You know what's so weird? I hadn't thought about it much till this episode. I guess that's because they kiss in this episode. Well, I've thought about it this whole time. I think we talked about it once because she's 21 years old, right? And he's 17. I think he's 18. Well, he told Brooks he was 17. Oh, with the crisis of faith. That's the only reason I know. Otherwise, I would have thought he was 18 as well. So it's illegal again in the fucking storyline, and several years older. Like she's 21, he's 17, that's illegal. Now, that's a four-year age guy. Like, Troy is four years older than me, but he would have never dated me at 17 when he was 21. Like you don't have anything in common. Right. Right. Yeah, it was a little odd. I think I just don't feel like it made me feel weird. But now that I realize I thought he was, I was thinking he was 18, even though he says he's 17. I'm like, uh-huh, oh well, it's illegal. Yeah. So they're still there's still just going in on that. And um and I said also, remember trying to land under mistletoe? Do you remember doing that in your life? Oh, yeah. I do that when um down on the street though, they decorate, they have mistletoe. I'll stand there and like wait for my husband. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like just be like a little bit back and I'll just keep standing. Just waiting for people. Look, anybody who walks under here. Social contract, okay? You're like, I'm here. I'm running. Garbage man. Man who lives across the street. I mean, you know, you know you live with your husband and you can kiss him anytime. I know, but mistletoe's fun. I know it is. I like mistletoe. But I did say, didn't they hang the mistletoe? Why are they surprised? They're both like, what? Where did that come from? How did we end up here? And I'm like, y'all hung that up. I'll literally put it in Latin. Hello? Like, um, and then I I kind of didn't like the whole storyline where Pacey's at the table talking to like the dean of the college and the artichoke building and all that stuff. I just didn't love how that all went. Yeah, because it really did make so it did take the focus off Joey and put it on him, which was the storyline because then Joey got upset, but then Pacey's still the hero at the end. I know. Because the guy's like, well, I like Pacy so much, and he was telling me how great you were. Because of Pacy. And I'm like, yeah, she's just great. And he does say, Oh, your academics stand on their own. But I'm like, so she can't be mad at him now for making the night about him because now he has like helped her get a leg up when she didn't really need his help. Yeah. I didn't love that. I don't love that either. I didn't love Pace as hero there. He is funny. And I could see how he like is charming at get-togethers and stuff like that, and how that guy should like him. Well, yeah, and Joey's shy and she's more introverted. That's that's like mine and my husband's dynamic, and yours too, when we go places. I make people giggle and laugh and we have a good time. And um he just chills. That's why he's he's like, sometimes I wish you could just go to my meetings for me. Right? Send you instead. Send me. I love it. Because I don't know anything that's going on. And then I just said the kiss at the party, but we already talked about that. Do you want to know something crazy? What? This is totally nothing to do's creek, but I'll tell you anyway, because we're here. So I'm doing that play read. Yeah. Listeners, I'm I'm in a play read next weekend, which is really fun. Anyway, the one of the guys in it works with Troy. Oh. So does Hunt. So I'm like, I am in this with two people you work with. That's so cool. You know him, Ryan. He works with Troy. I was like, that's so funny. That is kind of weird, right? Yeah. It's just odd. My husband works with no one, so I don't have to. I mean, he does like podcasts with people, but like I'm I'm in no danger of like accidentally being in a play with anyone. He works with a few. No, I mean it's fine. He's like, there's no bad blood or anything. Right. It's just interesting. It's just funny. I was like, oh, both of y'all work with my husband. There's only five of us in the play read. Right. Strange. I know. It's a weird thing. It's like the like two degrees of Kevin Bacon. It's two degrees of Troy. Troy, I won't say his last name. We have the same last name.

unknown: 27:27

Not that hard.

SPEAKER_00: 27:29

Okay. Two degrees of Troy. Okay. Anything else for this episode? Are you ready? Nope. I'm ready. All right. See season four, episode 10 is called Self-Reliance. Um, as Mr. Brooks revelations that doesn't make sense. What? I put as Mr. Brooks revelations about his past. Oh, wait, I missed the other word. Sorry, I thought there was a comma. No. As Mr. Brooks revelations about his past inspire Dawson, Pacey is encouraged to push his own relationship with Joey. Okay. So I said, this bothered me in the first 15 minutes. I said, why does Dawson's left eye look like he has pink eye? Did you? I don't know. It was so red. And Cooper was in the living room just watching it because I was like, I'm using the TV. And he I was like, look at his eye. And he's like, ew, it's all red. So then I was like, are they gonna have him have pink eye? Right. Like, how do you explain this away? It went away by the next scene. So maybe he's had contact problems. Yeah, maybe. It could have been his contact. I was like, I wonder if Katie noticed that. No, I didn't notice. Okay. But you you were probably watching on a big screen. I was watching on my laptop. Oh yeah. So I probably wouldn't have noticed that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I liked the when he's when he says it's a seasons greetings kind of kiss. Or maybe actually Gretchen said that. And then he's like, Well, happy holidays. Um, when she comes over to basically be like, Yeah, that meant nothing, and blah blah blah. And of course, like everyone at the party saw them kiss. Which when was it um Joey and Pacey at something where everyone saw them kiss? Yeah. Uh at the country club, there's something going on. Maybe, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. But I remember that from that too.

SPEAKER_01: 29:11

And I'd be watching everybody.

SPEAKER_00: 29:13

Everybody can't you can't get away with nothing. Okay, so the Toby guy at the coffee house. This guy. There's so many. Also, they threw every gay trope they could in the episode, which I'm like, I mean, no, I this was 2000, and so even this was like groundbreaking that they were even on a TV sit or not sitcom TV show 14s talking about this in a positive light, blah blah blah. But they just threw in every track. They did. They did. I I like when he sees him, he's like, Oh, you're that gay football player. And Jack's like, I don't like being identified like that. And he goes, What? Gay or has a football player. I mean, I thought I snap gotcha there, or whatever. And I was like, okay, Doby. I know. Calm down. I feel like Jack had a really good point. Like, I think they both had good points. And I think that's what you're supposed to eventually come to the conclusion. Right. I guess Jack was like, one thing shouldn't define me. But they were like, this one thing we all share that the world is shitty to us about, a lot of the world is shitty to us about. So this is the thing that brings us together. So I get it on both sides, but it was frustrating for Jack. I think because it's like, I don't, and he has said this the whole time like I am so much more than this one thing, which is true, as human beings, we are so much more than our sexual identity. We have lots of things going on that make us who we are. But then I can understand that if you are in a marginalized group, how the thing that makes you marginalized and you know uh discriminated against brings you together. I think what I don't like about it, about how they portrayed this and just in general is when other people put that on you because of something that's in your identity, which I think is kind of what you're saying. Like if you are in a marginalized group and you don't necessarily want to every day of your life be fighting for that group, you just want to live your life, you're a hundred percent allowed to fight. Then you should be able to do that. And you shouldn't be made to feel like less of or or why aren't you out here fighting as hard as us? Um, because you know, I see that even with like people I know, you know, and they're like, I just like want to be exhausting, I'm sure. Right. Like your day-to-day life is just trying to survive safely. Uh and unfortunately, the pendulum swing has swung backwards for us, and we are now back into uh like surviving is dangerous for marginalized people. Um, and it's become very scary. And so, yeah, if your day-to-day is a lot, so you're allowed to take a break and just and yeah, putting identities like, oh, gay people can't be football players, right, or soccer coaches, or whatever, or whatever. Yeah, right. I don't know. I just I didn't like how Toby was making him feel bad. And the other thing is, Jack is also still a child, right? That's so there's that he's still a child. And I think that makes me feel extra protective of the character because I'm like, I would never ask a child to like have to publicly stand up for themselves for anything. Well, and they're just now like Jack's just now trying to figure out how to figure out himself, as all teenage are all teenagers are, but like he's like the only identified gay kid in the town he's living in. Right. So he's trying to navigate all this. He's a kid, he's trying to figure it out. Toby's older and he's been a you know right, and I think that bothered me too. Yeah, that that power dynamic seemed off. And I did not like him. I didn't either. I just did not like him. I didn't and oh, was Jen wearing a wig these past two episodes? That was strange, right? Yeah. I don't know. We would have to look at the one previous. Uh the both of these episodes, she had on the kerchief, and then she had on the headband, and in this episode particularly, her hair looked like it was a wig. And I was like trying to figure out why she would have a wig. Yeah. I don't know. We'll have to look that up. I was like, was she wearing a wig? I could see it. I could see it. Also, Joey and Pacey, they're just like, here's three days in our toddler. And then the strangers showing up to spend the night there because it's a bed and breakfast. But it's like you're gonna you're leaving them for three days with your toddler with the knowledge that strangers could just show up and want to also stay here. Yeah. And she's by herself or with Pacey, but either way. Either way. I was like, this is what? No. And your child's in the house? No. I mean, that would be an issue I would have anyway with like people boarding in the place I lived. Yeah. I think that and I and I mean people who own those establishments, I'm sure, take security measures and all the things, but like no, I wouldn't want to stay where anyone could walk through the door and like pay me for a bed for the night and be in my kitchen. Not when you're 17 years old. No, I thought that whole thing was weird. Hello, with a baby. Yeah, that's not yours. Right. That was weird. I thought that was the only other thing I had was I don't like Gretchen and Dawson romance. That's all I had. Okay. I only had one more thing, too. When um, so Pacey, or I'm summarized here. We go. That's okay. This is to help me collect my own. No, that's on this one. So Joey kicks Pacey out because he's playing with the baby instead of making the baby go to sleep, which we all know you can't really make, especially a toddler, can't make them go to bed. So I was already on Pacey's side. I'm like, let him play with the kid. You just read your book, whatever, but I get it. Routine is routine. So she kicks him out. And then the next, and then the people show up to spend the night, and you know. So one day later, Pacey comes over because Gretchen's like, be a good boyfriend, you know, be there for her, yada yada, yada. So he shows up, he's got groceries, and Joey has this total meltdown about how she has to do everything alone. And I wasn't trying to be shitty, but I was like, for one day, she's like, I have to take care of all these guests, and I'm taking care of a baby, and I had to go to the grocery store. And I'm like, Joe, Joey, you you've been doing it for a day. But I think it was that she's super stressed because of the Dawson stuff, too. Right. And then that was the point. And then Pacey says, Well, I don't think it's this. Right. But I was kind of like listening to that and I was like, She's also 17 though. That is a lot for a 17-year-old. That is, that is, yeah. But I think it was just the way she was delivering the lines. It sounded like it's like you're like, Shh, I'm like, get out of here. You're fine. I'd be doing stuff by myself for decades. Um literal. So it was yeah. Anyway, that was it. I mean, I thought it was a pretty good episode. Yeah. I other than the Joey staying alone with strangers and all that stuff. So I did think I remembered. I mean, obviously, you know Mr. Brooks, he's gonna die at some point in this up in this season. And I thought this was the episode. Oh, when he fell asleep. Oh and I was like, Oh, is this where he dies? And Cooper popped his head up and he was like, He dies, and you're like, just kidding. I was like, spoiler. I know he dies at some point. That part was cute where Dawson calls him out on flirting with Grams. I know that was cute too. That was at the party, so I guess that was last episode to see. Oh, yeah. You were just flirting with he's like, What? No, no, I wasn't. Old people flirting is so cute, freaking cute, and she was it it really was giving like um Joey and Dawson banter from season one. Yeah, because it was kind of aggressive and making fun of each other in an old people way, but also like in a playful way. Mr. Brooks is just, I'm sorry. You don't like him, he's too much, he's too grumpy, and he's mean he is he's mean, but he's having a little bit of an arc. I know but I don't know learning about his past. Okay, but like I said, just because stuff has happened to you does not give you the right to be an asshole. I thought of this when you said that earlier, um, particularly one of the podcasts I listened to, true crime, everyone. But they say that they'll be they'll they'll give background on it, they'll be like, oh, they you know, their parents got divorced or they were abused or whatever. And they'll say, like, that happens to so many people. Unfortunately, we can write a list for everyone. And that doesn't mean that you should go out and kill someone, or you have a right to be misogynistic or whatever. Like other people get over it, and that's well. That's oversimplifying saying it that way, or or working through it, or deciding not to do the same. Yeah. I don't think because it's not really getting over it. Right. I think it's just learning how to manage it. Yeah. Because wanting to. Everybody can make a list of bad, horrible, shitty things that's happened to them in their whole lives, you know? Some people have had it harder than others in certain areas. Right. And then some people have had it easier in certain areas, but nobody's had it easy, right? Even though they may look like it. Sure. Well, you never know. Yeah, you never know. So I tell my kids all the time, like, if they're in a grumpy mood and they're being mean, I'm like, look, you can be grumpy. You can't be mean. Like, that's not okay. And if I'm doing that, I have to apologize. Right. It's it's not okay for any. But I try to tell, I try to warn people in my house, like, I'm grumpy or I'm tired, like, I'm sorry. Like, I've gotten better at vocalizing that too. Oh, I have oh, I'll tell because I know when I am on a rampage. Yep. That happened to me last night. I got back, so my youngest my youngest had a concert that was outside. Oh, but it was in a pavilion. So it's already like super crowded and all the kids and their instruments are crowded, and then they have the parents come in with the kids to learn to play the instrument. And my daughter plays a bass, a classical bass. So it's like all of us jam-packed and this giant instrument. And for whatever reason, right where my daughter was, because it was like twilight time or starting to be close to sundown, she was right in the sun. So I'm burning up, trying not to hit the man next to me, learning to play this bass, which I need to look because I look up at one point and my daughter has my husband's phone is taking a video of me. So I forgot to look at it last night. I'm sure it's sweating. And and it's loud because no one can play it. It's like the parents trying to play it. And then we all have to file back out. So then we're done with that. We carry out her bass, which is heavy as heck, get it all the way home, get them settled, go to my other daughter's concert, which was fun and wonderful, but more noise, more whatever. We're waiting outside. It's loud, everyone's talking to everyone, and I've been up since 4 a.m. And now it's like nine. Nine, yeah, it was like nine. And what are you getting up at 4 a.m. for? Your book's done. I know, right? Work? I had work to do. I got up early today, too. You we need to talk. I know. We'll be talking. We'll talk. So I got home, and so my little one who had done the bass had stayed home when we went to the other concert. And I went and sat in my room, and she comes in and like jumps on the bed, like puts her head on my lap. And I just I said, I am very overstimulated. Yeah. I was like, I was hot, it was loud. I was like, You're cool. I just need a moment. And so she kind of like backed up and just kind of sat there, and it was fine. Rather than like trying to be like, no, suck it up. Like I don't know. What you're doing is showing them it's okay for them to say that too. I didn't want her to leave. I just didn't want her to like ask me questions or touch me. Like, just move over and be quiet for a few with me. We can be together. Yeah. And she totally like gets that. Kids are usually like they're much better if you're just direct in a nice way. In a nice way, right? Right. And I even said, it's not you, it's all the stuff I had to do too. I told Cooper, I told Cooper that yesterday because when I sat down and watched the Stars on Screak, he was playing the switch and click the clicking. I can't. You know, I have I have like sound things and like clicking, it just and they know this. And I looked at him before I turned the TV on. I said, You're either gonna have to stop doing that or go in your room with that. Because you can take it with you. Like of course, yeah. And I I said, I I can't like I cannot. Like I said, I hardly ever sit on this TV on a school night. Like, I'm doing this for 44 minutes. Yeah, you can sit here without that on or go in another room because I can't do it. So smart. He I do this all the time because I can't they know, like I can't, like right, or I'll be like, he'll be like, Can I have a piece of gum? I'm like, if you chew it not next to me. Yeah. I mean, I think like you said, if you're direct and in in like the instance with with my daughter last night, it was about me and saying, like, I am dealing with this right now. Yeah, please it's not you, please do this or that. I just can't. I noticed particularly my teenagers are are good at vocalizing that now too. Sometimes after the fact, like, sorry I was grumpy, this, this, and this. Well, sometimes you don't know until later. Totally. And even then, I'm like, it's fine. Like sometimes you don't know. Thanks for telling me, you know. Yeah, and sometimes that's happening. Or can I what can I do? Can I help you with anything today? Like, whatever. Um, I remember like being a teenager and into college, and my mom handled most of the stuff with us kids because for the longest she was a stay-at-home mom before she went back to work. But my dad was involved, but it was usually my mom was like the front line, right? She was the default. And I remember being like a teen and in college, and my dad started asking me. I remember him asking me then, maybe he asked me before, what can I do for you today? And he would just ask that. And usually I'd be like, nothing. But then it like opened the door for me to be like, actually, could you just move my laundry over to the dryer so I don't have to do it like at five o'clock tonight? Or can you help me get like I would have ice on my car? Can you go start my car while I finish my makeup so I can the ice can melt? Or you know what I mean, whatever it was. And I've again, you can't always do everything for your kids all the time and whatever, but I've been trying to do that, like if they're upset, saying, Is there something I can do? And usually there's not. But like this morning, I helped one of my kids, like I looked over Amelia's essays last night, and that made her happy, and we hit send on that one. And then this morning I helped my other daughter review something for her AP English class, and she was in a spiral. And I literally just sat there. She mostly because she had to handwrite it because they don't want you to use an AI. So she's handwriting on a piece of paper, frantically trying to finish this thing, and all her ideas were great. And I just sat there and I said, Well, well, maybe don't forget to include this word, or I didn't write it for her, but like just me being there helped her get it done. Yeah. You know, and like the little things like that I try to find, which again, you can't do all the time, and your kids can't expect you to. Yeah. But when you're able to, whether it's for kids, your partner, your friends, whatever, trying to find that. Because I also have found a lot of people have done that for me recently, and maybe more than recently, but it it feels good when someone's like, Oh, let me pick that up. Well, especially when people ask instead of just trying to do something thinking they're helping you. Right. Especially when they say, How can I help you? Yes. And I so appreciate that because tell me exactly how, basically. Yeah. And so and most of the time it is me going, no, I'm okay, or remembering later and being like, actually, you live by the place that has the posters and I'm 45 minutes away. Could you get them? And I'll just get them when I see you. Like little things like that. Um, Sarah, who listens to the podcast, I don't know if she listens to Dawson's Creek. Anyway, she does. She's already rewatched the whole thing. That's right. Because she got on a roll, she binged it. She binged it. Um, she's helping me with programs for frozen and like did the whole thing and then sent them to me. She asked first, of course. And I was like, Yeah, that'd be great. And then all I had to do was go through and be like, oh, can we move this? Can we adjust this? Let me add this one thing I forgot to tell you about, instead of starting from scratch. Yeah. And that saved me so much time. And she's a talented designer and all the things which I have to be like, I don't know, like Canva, give me a template. Like, I don't even know. And she's able to do all that. She made those posters too. Which probably did it takes her way less time than it would take. Exactly. Right. And that's like that to me was like such a lift to open it and it's basically done. Yeah. Ta-da. It's like, wow. Anyway, so that's kind of a tangent. But anyway, thanks for um listening in to Dawson's Creek, guys, and seeing our costumes, which we didn't mention, but we are we mentioned last Dawson's Creek. We're signing up in October. I mean, they're listening to us. They're listening to some people watch, but not. And if you're seeing us, you'll probably figure it out. It's pretty obvious what we are. It's pretty obvious. We had the wigs coming off. I can't wait to take this wig off. Yay. All right, awesome. Well, we will um see you next time, guys, on Dawson's Creek and all of our episodes here on Generation in Between. Bye.