Dawson's Creek S4, E5 & E6: Plus our NYC Reunion Thoughts

Before we dove into talking about the next two episodes in Season 4, we chatted about the recent NYC reunion of the original cast (plus a few others). The emotional weight of James Van Der Beek's absence from the event definitely cast a bittersweet shadow over our rewatch of these episodes this week.  

Ep. 5: "A Family Way" explores Gail's unexpected pregnancy with remarkable nuance, offering a mature portrayal of reproductive choices rarely seen in late '90s television. This storyline resonated with us when viewed alongside James Van Der Beek's real-life journey as a father of six/

Ep. 6: "Great Xpectations" follows the Capeside crew as they all attend a rave. Andie's life is put on the line when she decides to try some of the Ecstasy that Drue gave Jen. 

We are rewatching Season 4 of Dawson's Creek on Hulu and Amazon Prime.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Dawson's Creek Reunion in NYC
• 9:42 Season 4 Episode 5: A Family Way
• 17:13 Exploring Pregnancy Choices
• 25:42 Jack's Coaching Struggles
• 33:07 Season 4 Episode 6: Great Expectations
• 41:15 Raves, Drugs and Tough Lessons
• 47:58 Reflections on Growing Up

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

Welcome back, everyone, to our nostalgic and problematic series where we are re-watching Dawson's Creek. And we are on season four. Um, we are gonna talk about episode five and six today. But before we do that, we're gonna talk about something that happened this week related to Dawson's Creek.

SPEAKER_01: 0:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 0:19

And that is, y'all remember we had our adventure trying to get tickets to this. They did their Dawson's Creek reunion where they um the cast got together at a theater in New York and Richard Rogers Theater. They're Richard Rogers Theater. That's right. Which matters. Which matters. It does. Um, and they read through the pilot episode. Um, I can I even tell you, this has been all over my feed. Mine too. And it has brought me joy and sadness. Same. Okay. So tell everybody who doesn't know what ended up happening. Okay. So, yes, everyone from the original pilots and a few fill-ins were going to be there to read through, and including obviously James Vanderbeek, Dawson. And as most of us know, he is battling colorectal cancer, which was the whole point of this, to raise money and awareness. And so he got a bad stomach virus. Two back to back. Two back to back. And it just wasn't safe or smart for him to travel and be in New York and be in public with his immunity the way it is, and also just not feeling good. So he had an understudy go in, which Richard Rogers Theater, remember? Uh Lynn Manuel Miranda filled in Wild as the role of Dawson Leary. So let's pause for a second on that because I was thinking about that. And I'm like, okay, back in 1998, 99, 2000, nobody knew who Lynn Manuel Miranda was. Most people didn't know until Hamilton came out. Now he had done some other things. He wrote the score for well in the heights, he had done. I'm just saying, like the general public. Not everybody knew that. And he had done the score for Moana. Yeah, yeah. But like generally, he wasn't a household name. He didn't explode. He wasn't a household name, right? So you think about that. But he has said before that he was a huge Dawson's Creek fan. So I don't know. It'd almost be like you or I being able to like fill in for Katie Holmes, you know, when like back then. Oh, but not to like make this. You're comparing us to Lynn Manuel Miranda. I'm saying, like, be like if Katie Holmes gave us a call, it'd be like that, you guys. Look, we just haven't blown up yet. Okay. We're getting there. So obviously, uh, Lynn Manuel Miranda was happy to do that, but but as you mentioned, it was joyful and sad because it's like imagine Lynn Manuel Miranda playing you, but also like obviously everyone wanted to see him. He wanted to be there. And he wanted to be there, and he was so sick. And he did call in virtually to thank everyone for being there. He's very, very thin. I saw a few people on social, you know, everyone's commenting on how thin he is. Well, obviously, he's very sick, but a few people were like, oh man, he's reminding me of Patrick Swayze at the end. And I was like, oh, but we know he's fighting for his life out there, and he was well spoken on the video, like seems as much as he can be forward-facing mentally to be doing well. Of course, all six of his children were at this event, and his wife. Two of his kids sang the opening, start of the opening on the Richard Rogers stage. It was cool because in some of the clips you can see part of the Hamilton set behind them, which is really cool. They had a big like screen in front, but you could still see it. And so, like, two of his kids were singing, and then the rest of his family came out, and then you've got Lynn Manuel, and you've got Katie Holmes and Joshua Jackson and Jack Kerr and everybody. And Graham's her hair, right? Uh, it was so good. She was so I loved that she was there. And then it reminded me like she was not as old as they made her seem when she was on that show. Right. Because she looks about as old now as we were supposed to believe she was in the channel. We yeah, right. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, they aged her for that. They aged her for that. And uh, I think, yeah, Lynn Manuel did like a like a post with a bunch of different posts from her videos, some weren't. And there's just this part, I don't know if you've seen it, where Grams, I can't remember her her name in real life, is saying one of her lines to Jen, you know, in that Grams voice. And Joshua Jackson just starts giggling and can't stop. He's like, like he's like scared of like whatever the line is, or and Grams kind of like looks at him and he's like like freezes up, like, uh-oh, I'm in trouble with Grams. Oh, that's hilarious. And it you could tell it was coming from like Land Manuel's like camera, like he was taking it. And so he like captioned it like Joshua Jackson completely being back in that moment when the actress was playing Grams. It was really cute. Can we talk about the kiss between him and Busy Phillips? Okay. I was like, that we didn't know that was coming because she was reading for Tamara. Yeah, Tamara. I wonder why they didn't have that actress. Is she alive? You know what? I don't know. I don't know. Um, yeah, well, because Busy Phillips, she she comes in, I think, next in the college. She stayed on. Yeah. So I mean, she's part of it way more than I'm just curious if that actress maybe doesn't want to be there for that. Or maybe not. I don't know. Yeah. But I mean, I'm glad that they brought Busy Phillips. Me too. I love it. And Jack and Andy because they were there and like they weren't in the pilot either. And so right. It was nice. They had a lot of familiar faces. They read a bunch of different parts. They did, because there were other people in that episode outside the main four. Yeah. Yeah. And I love it's just, you know, it's like we talked about when we talked about waiting to exhale. Oh god. When you have a cast that just is cohesive, so cohesive. Um, and you see them together again, you can tell they really like each other. Like they really do, they really did care about each other. You know, they had a genuine relationships. And listen, I'm sorry. Joshua Jackson and Katie Holmes, they still they still got some fire up in there. And I would love to see what happens in the next year or so. Me too. And I I also just liked how they were all, of course, they looked nice, but they were all kind of toned down. Like Katie Holmes just had on, I don't know, sort of like a normal as normal as you can be for a celebrity like outfit. I'm sure she was wearing makeup and stuff, but nobody looked too like glamorous or crazy. Like they looked nice, but they just like looked casual and I don't know. It was just a really warm feeling. And then watching it. I saw a video of them coming out of the theater and like see like greeting fans. And you know who I loved seeing with their fans the most was uh Mitch. Oh Mitch! He came out with this big old smile. He was holding people's cameras, taking pictures, like everybody was doing that. But he, you know how some people just relate to their fans a little bit more? Right. He was like all like just it was adorable. You could tell he was really all of them, but he definitely was really soaking in the moment. Yeah. But even then there was that air of sadness because you know, James Vanderbeek wasn't there, and even if he had been there, that sadness would have been there because of the reason you're there. And you can tell, like you said, you can tell they're all still friends and they have like those relationships, and you can tell they really care about him. Yeah. And his children. I know. And like, oof. But you know what? Kerr Smith came out with a statement. I didn't read all the details, I just saw a little blurb about it. He said he wrote a script for uh like a Dawson's Creek spinoff. Okay. That has well, okay, this is a spoiler. If you have never watched the whole thing of Dawson's Creek, you don't want to know this part. Him and uh Pacey's brother end up together at the end. Oh, Dougie? Yeah. So um they he it's from it's them still in Capeside, okay, and then their kids. Oh. I love it. Which, oh my god, I'm here for that. We would so be here for that. Yeah. I think that would be a multi-generational uh show. Can we have James Vanderbeek's kids on the show though? I know. And Katie Holmes's daughter I don't know. Everybody so anyway, so I saw he said, No, no, no, it's it's there. And the guy, the brother, whoever the actor's name playing Doug, said, Oh, I'm totally on board. Like, let's do it. Yeah. So we'll see if that happens. Oh, that would be great. I would love that. So yeah, and just kind of it's interesting because Dawson's Creek, not to be like too corny, but like it's become part of my weekly routine. Yeah, we've been doing this for a while, over a year, maybe a year and a half at this point for Dawson's the podcast closer to two years. Yeah. And I guess it was the same when it was on, and you would watch it every week. Maybe it's the same vibe. Yeah, yeah. But it's like I'm always doing that, and it's always on my to-do list, and I'm touching bass with these actors every week. And so then for this real life thing that's so heavy to be happening, and then I'm going back and seeing them back then, it's I'm having a little trouble. It's jarring. There were some, there's we'll talk about it, but there's some parts in these two episodes specifically that I was like, man, that hits hard right now. It's true. But I'm we'll get into it. Okay, so let's jump into the episodes. Uh, episode uh season four, episode five is called A Family Way. Here is the summary. As Dawson discovers his mom is pregnant, Joey struggles with deciding when to start having sex with Pacey. Jack's sexual orientation causes a problem with his coaching a youth soccer team. Oh yeah. This saw that coming. This had a lot, but it was a good episode. I thought it was a really good episode. It was a really good episode. Really, really good. First thing I said right off the bat, Gail pregnant exclamation for me. Oh girl, I said, Oh my god, if I got pregnant at our age, nope. And they're in their early 40s. Yeah, that's what they're supposed to be. They do okay. I I'm seeing for it, but yeah, okay. And obviously have a full, almost full grown child. So it's not like they started having kids later and they've got a few little ones. It's like have almost completed parenting with one completely, well, childhood parenting, and now we've got another one coming. I know it's I I liked how especially excited like Mitch was and that sort of thing. I don't know. I mean, they wrote it really well. I thought they did too. And I thought what was really kind of cool about it, and we didn't see as much back then, there was a lot of stuff in pop culture about abortion as a choice for young people and that thing. But to have it presented as a choice for a married couple well who were older, I thought that was something we wouldn't really seen back then. Well, I think it's important because the the the narrative around abortion from people who are against it paints a picture of people who use abortion as birth control. Yeah. Which is ludicrous. Sorry, I'm just gonna, I was trying to think of a non- I whatever. It's ludicrous. I know lots of people in my life who have had abortions and not Naria one has been for birth control reasons. Right. Um meaning, meaning that it's something they take lightly, right? Like, oh well, the condom broke, whatever, I'm just gonna go get this abortion take. Not one person and everybody I know who's had one has been various ages, single, married, coupled, whatever, and they have had different reasons for having having it done. Yeah. Right. Right. And I think that this was this was so important because it's important to see that you need to fully understand what abortion is and uh with a complete picture. This isn't the complete picture, no, but the narrative that we were being given at the time was it was only about young people and you know who made a mistake, who weren't instable, who weren't being responsible. Right, right. Um, I think it was, I think that's that was good. And I loved Mitch's attitude about it the whole time. Me too. I really, really did, uh, because he did not push her one way or another. Right. He told her how he felt, as he should. Well, sure. And he and he was and he was visibly and vocally excited about the idea of having a baby, but he was also, and he even defended it to Dawson when Dawson was like, Oh, I can't believe like she would not. And and he said, you know what, it's her decision. Right. Because that's why he's like, Dad, I can't believe you're letting her do this. That's what he said. And he and he was like, No, that's not. And you know what I have to say, my husband is when when we had Caden, I was I I had a really hard time after for lots of reasons, and I'm like, I can't do this again. Like, my body doesn't do birthing and pregnancy well. I'm just not made some people's bodies perfect, made well, great. I also my body has a hard time adjusting back after, so I get really, really bad mental health things after until my hormones level, which I know now, but I didn't know then what was going on. Right. So I said, I can't do this again. I'm not having I don't want to have any more kids. Don't want to. And he was up, he was like not, he was like Mitch. He was like, Well, that makes me sad, but it's up to you. You're the one who has to go through it, especially because he was gone all the time and he was like, Right, you are the one who has to carry it, and you have to carry it to your body. So he respected that, and then I changed my mind multiple times. Because then we tried again and I lost I lost a baby. And so I was like, I really can't do this again. Yeah. And he was like, That's okay. I understand. So I think, and then I changed my mind again, and then of course we had Cooper and and yes, and obviously everybody's like, Well, you have two kids. Yes, correct, because I changed my mind. Change your mind again, but I think I think knowing that you have a partner who will say, I feel this way, but I understand it is mostly on you 100%. Yeah, yes, that is half my genes in your in your womb. Right. But you, and I'm sorry if y'all don't like this men out there. We do. If we are birthing the baby, it is on us. We have to change the way we eat, we have to change the way we take care of ourselves. Our body is fucking wrecked. Like for some people it goes back to normal, and some of us it doesn't, right? So I think it's important to have to show that men I think happy is great. And that's exactly what happened when I was pregnant with Tegan, but I was already pregnant. Right. Brandt was like, my husband was like, I'm happy, but I also am okay with you not being happy. Right. Like it's okay. To which I got mad, and I was like, How dare you? How dare you say I can do what I want? How dare you? How dare you say the exact thing? Well, now I just don't know what to do at all. So I'm just gonna go over here and not talk to you. But you know, hey, that that choice is my 10-year-old, almost 11-year-old now, my youngest. And I have to be really careful when I talk about things like that, like that story I just told you. Yeah. And then with my oldest, because I I was a single mom and I made the choice. Oh my gosh, how embarrassing my phone is ringing. I guess it was damn likely. Never heard your phone ring. It's always on like vibrant. You know why? Because at the story I told you earlier, I was waiting for a call last night. That's so funny. Um, I think I'll just turn it off because I don't really need it. Um, so I talk about even in my book I'm writing briefly, because I don't want it to be about that, but I talk about being a single parent and making that choice to become a parent when I could have not. Right. And I have to be really careful because I don't ever want it to sound preachy or self-righteous, yeah. Or like, or like, well, I made this choice and I don't regret it. And I'm so glad I did it. 100%. It because the keyword is choice. Choice. That's it. And that I could have made a different one. Yeah. And I'm not gonna go so far as to be like, and everything still would have been fine because like I can't, of course, can't imagine my life without the the children that came from those. But like I have to be really careful because I'm not saying I did it, so can you. Right. I'm just saying, look, this is what I picked. That's what you picked, you know? And you have a right to have a choice to choose. Right. That's what it is. Yeah. You know, you have the right to choose. Uh, and I mean, I will full up say I've never had an abortion, but let me tell you what, I took morning after pill in college. Yeah, sure did, sure did. Same premise as just earlier. Yeah, it's just earlier. It's the same premise. Um now I have no problem saying that because it's something I did. I now I did it. I didn't do it with a prescription, which is not safe, so don't do that. Because basically, all a morning after pill is you just it's like um, it's almost like a triple dose of birth control pills. It prevents things from continuing to occur. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, that's not exactly the right science. So don't of course don't sound bite that and then be like, go try to make your own. Don't please God, don't do that. Please don't do that. But I will say you should like that's the thing that we both like we're saying, you should have the choice. Women should have the choice, which is what they presented in the in the in the show. And at a different age and all of the things. The only the only thing I'm gonna say is that they presented it also with Gretchen. And I felt like that got a little preachy. It did, and didn't she say she miscarried? Yes, but she was like, I don't know. I get what you mean. You know what I mean? It just it's it felt a little different, and it also felt very and I don't think they meant to, but it was like that's the whole reason you came home. Like that felt very cautionary, Tail. Like you can't get pregnant in college and stay at college, or you can't get pregnant and have a miscarriage because now you're just ruined and you have to come home. Right. I didn't like that either. Right. But all but the other side of that is maybe she was struggling mentally from that for whatever reason, from you know, just being nervous about maybe being a parent and then the physical trauma of a miscarriage and all of that, that that was what made her need to come home. But it just felt a little like, okay, so I guess don't get pregnant in college. Like what I don't know. I don't know. Something about hers just felt a little off. Hers was off. Okay. So moving on, we have a mention of E True Hollywood story. I know. I loved that. Oh my God, I loved E True Holiday, true Hollywood story. So, so good. Um, I loved when Mr. Brooks, that's the older gentleman who in a previous episode, Dawson messed up his boat trying to save his friends. So Dawson is now repainting his house, which first of all, the amount of effort that Dawson is putting into this, also they're always painting houses. That's all these young men. And Mr. Brooks says something because um he reaches for Dawson's photography and is like going through it. And Dawson's like, Don't touch my personal property. And he's like, Oh, don't talk to me about the sanctity of personal property. And I thought that was just such a funny line. Oh my god. Um, and then I wrote down, is this about sex? Oh, because Joey's at lunch and she just like looks all sad. Jen's like, what's wrong? She starts to like, what if this and what if that? And what how would you feel if it and Jen just goes, is this about sex? She's like, How'd you know? And she's like, because it always is. Yeah, yeah. Which is true. I mean that was so good. Um yeah, I will say I appreciated too that they showed like Joey taking initiative for her sexual health before she had sex. Agree. Because I think a lot of teenage girls wait till after to take it or they they rely on the guy to have protection. Right. And, you know, so I like that they showed, and and I like that they showed it's fucking awkward. Like it is. But I love what the doctor said. She said, Joey, if you're not ready to talk about this, you're not ready to have sex. Yep. Which goes back to my three C's, everybody. Do you remember them? If you can't communicate about it, you do not, and you aren't ready to talk about the consequences, you're not ready to do it. Not ready. Yeah. That's a real easy way to figure that out. Now, that doesn't mean if you're nervous, you're not ready. But if you can't verbalize and chat about it. Right. Nah. And I like that the doctor pointed that out, but like they also still gave her all the tools. Yeah. Right? Like it wasn't like, well, get out of here. Come back when you're ready. I also like, here you go. But yeah, think about this. I also like that they they did all that, and then she was supposed to go back in a week for her pelvic exam. I like that because that gives you time to think about it. Agree. And it's not all at once, especially if you've never had a pelvic exam before, which you may not have if you're not sexually active yet as a teenage girl. Um, they're not fun the first time. Well, they're never no, they're never fun. No, but the f I cried. I remember because I was young. I mean, I was like 15 because I had to, I was having problems. And I my mom brought me to her gynecologist. He's a man. Ugh. And no offense, but I'm sorry, men gynecologists. I only prefer to go to women. That's just me. And he was just, I was crying, it was miserable. Oh my God. It was the worst experience. Oh man. It was oh my god. It was absolutely I don't even remember. Like I just remember because it was traumatic. Yeah. And he told me to relax. Like I'm crying. Yeah. And he's like, can you please just relax? I I burned in my brain. Oh no. Yeah. No, not this man. Anyway. Uh-uh. Um, so I like that they showed that. I like that too. On the flip side, let's talk about the creepy thing that happened in this episode. Do you know what I'm gonna say? Can you say Molly's sister? Yeah. The 28-year-old. Yes. Yeah. 28-year-old. What is it on the show with older women and teenage boys? I know. Now he does say he's 18, and she's like, oh, but still, well, I know. It's still 28 way older. Yeah. He is in high school. And also, like, why do you want that? You know what it reminded me of? And I just thought of this Shelly in the restaurant, the one who was hitting on Henry. I was like, do any women really talk like this? I'm saying. Like she was you think so? Yes. Yes. And I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with the age. Okay. Okay. I have no problem with that. But what I meant was not that not even that, but just like that, she's so pushy. That she's so friends like that. Okay. Dang. Not me. Not me. But I do. I have friends like that. They they're just like, they just look at the slightest sign of rejection, I'm I'm gone. I'm hiding in a cave somewhere under a blanket. Like I'm you nope. I tried, I I give up. If anything ever happens to Katie and our husband, we'll be single the rest of our lives because we're we will just be those older. Too awkward. Mm-mm. Yeah, we are. And also just I wouldn't, I wouldn't even know if someone was hitting on me. How about God's same? I would not know. Me either. You'd have to tell me. But you might not know. I wouldn't know either. We would just be living along. People like, oh, that guy was nice being nice to you, or that lady, or whatever. You know what it is though? I'm always on alert for creepiness. So I would just think everybody's creepy. Me too. I'm just like, you're just creepy. It's kind of unfortunate that creeps have made it that way. Because if someone genuinely just wants to be flirtatious with you, it is like, ugh.

unknown: 23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:11

Unless it's a gay man who's just trying to make you know, they're flirting in like a platonic way. Love that. Just like a just like a playful way. Yeah. Keep doing that. That's that feels lovely. We'll take that. Um, but anyway, yeah, her. I did not like it. That was so it's like, why do we keep going back to this on this show? I don't know. It's repetitive. And I mean, I guess in this context, he needed a reason to say he was gay for the plot point. But could they made her their age? Right. Like, why'd she have to be 28? She's a big sister. Couldn't she just be a college age or 18-year-old big sister? Yeah, that was weird. I was strained like that. I didn't like that. Anyway. Um, okay. So this was one of the scenes where I was like, oof, this feels this is hurting my heart. Well, Mitch and Dawson have the chat about the pregnancy. Oh, I know. And Mitch is talking about how he always wanted a big family, a house full of children. And I'm just thinking about James Vanderbeek's gigantic family. I know. And looking at him at this age, knowing this person on the screen right now had no clue. And then you think about your own life, and you're like, when I was that age, and like I didn't know like what my and it doesn't even have to be children, it can just be what your life was going to be, like who you were going to spend time with, where you're gonna live, what your job was gonna be, the experiences that you've had from being that age that Dawson is in that scene to the age we are now, which is still a pretty great age. We've still got a lot going for us, you know. Got it, yeah. And lots more years, hopefully. And that one that was a really lovely scene on its own. Yeah. It really was, yeah. And then to think about now, I just like it's a lot. This is a lot. I know a lot, it's a lot. I know because I think part of being middle-aged, especially in your 40s, people say it's midlife crisis. I don't really think I think it's just a midlife awareness where you start thinking of things like that. Like, yeah, it's not that you have a mortality issue, it's just thinking, dang, like life is a lot different than I thought it would be, whether it's better or worse. Because we all have those ideas when we're young. Oh, I'm gonna be doing this and that. And that hardly ever happens. Like nobody we can't predict what's gonna be. And I think, yeah, seeing that, especially like when Mitch was talking about kids, and he's like, I wanted a house full of love, and he's like, Oh, I have that. And I'm like, Oh, I know me too. Then I cried when Dawson talked to his mom. Oh, I know. See, I'm gonna cry right now. I know, me too. And he's like, You're the best mom I ever had, or no, I've ever known. Wow, way to really mess that one up. Um, that's so typical. You gotta laugh though. You gotta laugh. Okay, okay. We need to where he said, You're the best mom I've ever known. Correct. Yeah, correct. Yeah, because Dawson, and I mean, that's the thing about pregnancy. Yeah. Yes, it comes back to the woman carrying the baby, but it affects, right? The whole family and the whole circle of people in your life. And so Dawson was struggling either way, struggling with the idea of not being the only child anymore, but then also I'm almost a grown-up, but then also didn't love the idea of like not having the sibling once he'd adjusted to it. So well, and he was worried about his parents, too. He was worried about his parents. He was like, they're broke, like they're yeah, really, yeah. He's like, they're trying to they're trying to get by with this restaurant, and I'm not gonna be there. And like he was worried, and I mean, that's a valid thing to be worried about. Absolutely. And they're older, they're older. I mean, that's valid. That is valid, totally valid, yeah. I have no idea why I wrote this down. Okay, please help. Natasha Boyardy. Oh, because that was Jack's fake girlfriend's name when Andy was like, Andy's like his girlfriend Natasha, Natasha who Natasha Boyardy. That's why. Think that's so funny. Did you ever okay? You may not have done this like I did. I remember being in college, uh, going out, and like we'd meet people at like Creepy Guys, and we'd give them fake names. Of course. Yeah. And I was trying to remember some of the fake numbers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like some of the stupid names that, and I could not remember any. I had this horrible habit of giving myself a fake name but telling them my friend's real name. Oh my god. And one of my friends' names, she listens to this podcast. Hey girl, and she will remember this. Her name's Veronica. Uh-huh. And I would be like, I'm Laura. And this is Veronica. Oh my god. Which is not a very common room. And she would just be like, Hello? Why are you doing this? Veronica Boy RD. That's why we start calling her. Oh my god, that's your new name. I don't think it's a good one. No, no, it's Natasha. I'm saying I'll just call my friend then. And I was speaking of Jack, I just felt so bad for him. I know. And you know, I was thinking about like I was thinking about how those kids quit the team and said he was dangerous or whatever, which is just makes me so sad how that whole narrative about mostly gay men and it pedophilia stuff makes me so mad. I know. Because that narrative has been around forever and it's just heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_01: 28:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 28:29

And and he knew he knew that. He's like, you know, working with kids, I don't want to tell, like, I don't want to say, and he was right, and it was just so sad. But then the little girl was like, I know you're not dangerous. I was like, oh right. And obviously the little girl's parents also knew that. Right. Because she's like, they called my dad, but she's there at practice. So that was a good setup, too. Because it was like some parents are being like this, but others aren't. And I think they did a really good job setting up what a good coach he was. Like Andy was very awkward, and here he comes, he's like, All right, raise your hand if you want to have fun and eat pizza. Yeah. And like right away, you're like, oh man, this guy's great with this team. Like he's gonna pizza. I'm like, I should be using that more in my work with children. We're gonna have fun and have pizza. Yeah. Um, and so I just I mean, that was just a good setup, and and not even exaggeration, like, you know, if you literally know a gay man at all in your life, like you know, like the nuances of of just being an individual, right? And that it doesn't all have this narrative. So I I thought that was really sad, but then I was also like, man, like, how long ago was I know it wasn't even that long. So we're even like dealing with it still. I know it made me think too. I remember um like my sister and I were talking about this not long ago. Like, my mom was not perfect, okay? She all she had her things, but the one thing we always say she did right was we were raised in a very open house and like To the point where my parents had friends of all backgrounds, all gender expressions, all sexualities, all nationalities. Um, and I mean, I can remember having friends because I mean I grew up in the South. So, like, unfortunately, the South is rampant with hate for all kinds of people. Yeah. Uh one of my my my favorite babysitters that my mom would have watch us was a lesbian, and she was very out, and we loved her so much. And I can remember a friend of mine saying something to me one time about that. Wow. And it and as a kid, and I can't remember now what it was, but I was like, to me, it was so weird because it was the first time I had heard somebody say something negative about being gay. Like when I because I was a small kid. Yeah. And I was like, what? Like it just did not click for me. Well, that's good because the only gay people I knew were lovely, wonderful, fabulous people, and I just didn't understand. And then of course I got older and saw how people are just mean and things. Right. So I I will say, like, that is something that my parents did very well. There was lots of things they didn't, as we do as parents, but I am grateful that that was never, you know, that was never a narrative that was pushed onto me, especially living where we lived. Yeah, absolutely. Do you know what I mean? No, that's a that's a great takeaway. Absolutely. All right, all right, all right, too serious. Let's move on. So I said, Gretchen, I'm loving her character more and more. I really like her. Loved her in these episodes. Really? Yeah, I really like her. Okay. Um, and I I wrote a Geo Prism.

unknown: 31:42

Oh.

SPEAKER_00: 31:42

Because she said that's where she whatever happened to me or whatever. Oh, I love my first car. I wrecked it two weeks after I had it. Oh, dang. Yeah. And those are kind of like known for being smaller vehicles. Oh, yeah. Very small, which was what made that funny. Oh, and I said it's another water talk. I know. I quit keeping it. Just put writing it down here like I quit keeping track of the water. Important conversation, they're on the water. I loved when Joey said she's the oldest 17-year-old in Capeside. Yeah. That was a really good line because Bessie's like, You're 17 and I have to look out for you. And she was like, Bessie, I'm the oldest 17-year-old in Cape Side. That's right. But I get back, I get where Bessie's coming from. And then Bodhi and the baby. And Bodhi's back. Hello. Bodhi's back and he's holding the baby at the end. I was like, hello, there they are. Almost like they throw them in every now and then so you don't forget about them. And you're like, oh yeah. Oh yeah, let's put Bodie and the baby in right here. Let's put Bodie and the baby. And Bodhi is saying all the right things, basically being like, Bessie just wants you to be able to do the things you want to do. And so she's worried about you. Valid, which makes sense. Valid a hundred percent. And Bessie's her parent, for better or for worse. It's hard for Bessie because she has to be parent and sister. I know that's tricky. It's like you want to have like the sisterly, like kind of chit-chat about the sex, but then you also have to be the parent to make sure that it's safe and all the things. So that's that's a tough spot for Bessie. Yes, it really is. All right, that's all I had on that episode. So moving on, season four, episode six, called Great Expectations. Summary is Andy's effort to celebrate her admission to Harvard ends up endangering her life. Yeah. That oof, so I have to admit, I think I got confused. Remember last time I said You thought that Jen took it? I thought that Jack took the ecstasy. Yes. Because I was like, Oh, you had the shoulder stuff, and I think there's like a pain pill situation. I think I totally just created that in my brain. Or not, we'll see. I don't know, but I feel like as soon as I watched this, I was like, wait, maybe I was thinking of Andy. Yeah, maybe. Because I remember somebody going to the hospital. So I'm like, I think anyway, I think I've remembered that all wrong. Okay. Okay. So yes. So it opens with Andy getting her acceptance letter to Harvard. Which was so funny because it's like so tiny and like he like runs there. Yeah. Yeah. With the library. Um, but like everyone's all excited, and that was really funny. And then um when they're in the CD store, they being Dawson and Gretchen, she mentions a group called Morchiba. You have no idea who that is. Me either. I wrote it down and she was like, it's a little bit this and a little bit Bismarcky and a little bit spooky, and I'll be like, I have no idea who that is. Yeah. Anyway, okay, me either. Um, and then I just put a raving cape side. I know. Okay. Hello. So back, okay, so let's let's talk about rave culture for a minute. Let's do it. I it was right in our teen life. I never went to one. Me either. I was thinking you had. I know, same. Thinking you had. Well, yeah. And then I was like, wait, I was sitting, I swear, I'm like, wait, no, I never actually went to a rave. Me either. I can remember. Well, and here's the part of it like drugs were a big part of raves back then. They were. And I know raves still happen now, and I mean, drugs are always gonna be everywhere. I feel like it's not as part big a part of the rave culture. Like, I know a lot of people who are ravers and they don't do drugs. Yeah. And um I I feel like that's probably why. Why you didn't go. Yeah. Yeah. Same with me. Because I mean, I under I did underage drinking in high school. I did a little pot smoking, but I never have done hard drugs because I'm terrified of them. Yeah. Literally terrified. And I did appreciate how they showed in this episode that when Andy took it with her medication, it almost fucking killed her. Because that is something that um with antidepressants and mood stabilizers, you have to be so careful with. Like so careful. Yeah, I appreciated that too. Yeah. Because I think this narrative that like you take a drug one time and you almost die is almost too much. It's too, yeah. Because it's almost unbelievable. It does happen. Oh, yeah, it can absolutely can, but I think by the time we were the age that we would have seen this episode the first time, we were almost desensitized to that because we'd seen it in other PSAs and made for TV movies and heard it in our schools. One time you could die, and it you just kind of get to the point where you're like, okay, and you have friends or you know people who have done drugs and none of them died. So I appreciated that this was like um more of like a nuanced, it's not just that, it's like whatever else is happening in your life mixed with the thing. And that's true for alcohol, that's true. Yeah, anything, any drug. Oh, yeah, right, like prescription stuff doesn't matter. Like you, there's certain prescriptions you can't take together. Like that freaking time I accidentally took. Yeah, anyway, long story, everyone, but I'm I'm okay now. Yeah. Um, and just because I didn't read the labels on something, well, and that's the hard thing about street drugs, is that you don't know exactly what's in it. True. And so you don't know how it's gonna affect your body and all that. And listen, my mom was an ER nurse for a long time, so I heard all kinds of crazy stories about OD and like taking something that you think is one thing and it's not, and I just that's I've never I've never partaken, which is funny because I had no problem living on the edge with other things, but drugs I never did. I just never did. But I went speaking of raves, their attire for this rave was shitty, it was horrible. What what was this was not more of those clothes sent like the people, the extras understood the assignment. Yes, and where were the glow sticks? They didn't have enough glow sticks. Pacey had one on his head. I know, but like you remember that dancing there were not nearly enough. I did write down that I loved Joey and hoop earrings. Oh yeah. I was like, oh, she loved Katie. She did. That's it. She did. And I was like, okay, Joey and Hoops. I'm here for that. But wasn't that funny? Like, that was her one thing she put on. Right. Because otherwise she had like this long sleeve and like jeans, and her hair was just down. You don't want that because like the whole point of a rave is to dance, right? It's like it's EDM, and that maybe that's another thing. I wasn't, I wasn't really into that electronica music back then. I love it now. Yeah, like Cooper can't stand it when I'm like in the mood and I put it on. He's like, Can we listen to that? Can we not listen to this? Or I loved how they were going bounce or dance. Are you gonna go bounce or dance? I'm like, that sounds so fun. I was thinking the same thing. Okay, yeah, that sounded fun. Bounce or dance, let's go. But their outfits were not really it. I was like, hello. You would expect Dawson to not really understand the assignment because it's Dawson, but like, I don't know, Gretchen. Gretchen was like having her little dress. No, what are you wearing? But you would rather teach me. You wear like clothes that you can dance in, that you can sweat in, you can move in, and that that are bright and fun, like to stand out with the black light, right? Yeah, I think so. Isn't that like we think so? And yeah, and it's just supposed to be kind of like feral in a way. Yeah. Like your hair and your like I mean, you're not supposed to be so buttoned up, which is what they were. Correct. It's supposed to be at party, it's supposed to be out there. I was like, what is this close? Yeah, it's middle-aged men writing a scene of what they think arranged. It's like and I kind of felt like they could all just like leave and go to Red Lobster right now. Like hello. Well, also, too, I always think it's so funny in TV shows and movies when they're in loud fucking parties and bars and they're able to have conversations at a normal volume. Right. Which I guess you have to, but I know, but it is funny. But they need to be like, let's go outside. Like, that's what they need. That's what they need to do. Yes. But this also made me remember a movie that Katie Holmes was in around this time about trying to go, I think it was called Go. I gotta look it up. Oh, that sounds familiar. And it had Rave in it, didn't it? Oh, I think it up. Let's keep talking and I'm gonna go. All right, so what I was gonna say is I loved when this is pre-Rave, when Jen's in the computer lab and you hear, You've got mail. I know. I wrote that. I put the IMAX and the AOL. Yeah you've got mail. Uh-huh. And then the mail is just an attachment of the party invitation. Which is so great. Which is so great. I loved it. Oh my god. Um, oh, and then okay, another good line and another great reference was when Dawson comes home from summer. This is before he goes to the rape because he wasn't gonna go, and then he comes home and there's all the balloons in the kitchen, and his parents decide they're gonna have the baby. Yeah. And he's like, Did publishers clearing house stop by? Like, what's going on? And I was like, that is so like subtle, but so good. And like the balloons are everywhere, and you're like, Yeah, that's what it looks like. I know. And if you don't know what that is, y'all are young. I know. Look it up, okay? I always had dreams of winning that. Me too. I would like send in, like, you know, you'd get the thing in the mail. I would be the one that would open it and send it in. Me too. My parents don't win. Me too. No balloons ever came down. No Ed McMahon at all. Obviously, we wouldn't be here right now. We wouldn't be here. So, what did you find out about Katie Holmes's movie? So, yes, the movie Go. Um, and oh god, she was so good in this because it was everything against what Joey was. And it came out in '99, so it was around this time. Um it's about, I'm trying to think what her name was. Oh, okay. So here's the summary. Grocery store cloaks clerk Simon occasionally sells drugs from his cash register at work. So when soap opera actors Adam and Zach come looking for ecstasy on a quiet Christmas Eve, they're surprised to find Rana covering his shift. That's not Katie. Desperate for money, Rana decides to become an impromptu drug dealer. Unaware, Adam and Zach are secretly working for obsessed narcotics officer Burke. I feel like that was way too much. Um who is Katie? She plays a girl named Claire. Okay. Um, I'm trying to see. I'm trying to, oh sorry, my font is like Ginoris. I just heard your um wind chimes go off. Yeah, I think it's Gina. She's just so here's some of the people who are in it. Oh, it has intertwining plots involving three sets of characters. It was like something, I remember it was something, and somebody somebody in there is trying to go to a rave and buy drugs and buy ecstasy, and then there's like all these missed identities. Anyway, so here's some of the people that are in it William Fisher, I don't know who that is. Katie, Katie Holmes, Jay Moore, Sarah Pauli, Scott Wolfe, Tay Diggs, Breckenmeyer, Timothy Oliphant, Desmond Askew, Jane Krakowski, um Melissa McCarthy in her film debut. Wow. Yeah, you gotta see it. And look, the the image, it says life begins at 3 a.m. Nice. I remember that. But like yellow and red. I remember that. It's like kind of edgy or whatever. And um, I'm trying to see where where her character comes in. And anyway, keep talking. Okay, I'm gonna find it as we chitch. I already said the thing about Joey's hoops. I did write that down. Oh, okay, here we go. Found it. This is the good part. So when this chick, Rana, is trying to buy buy drugs, she can't pay the full amount, so she leaves her friend Claire as collateral while she gets skip money. Oh no, that's what it was. I was trying to remember. And then there's like, yeah, there's a rave. They sell say fake ecstasy. It's a whole thing. It's a whole thing. We might need to watch this. I think that should be maybe after spooky season. Yeah, I think so. We should put that on our list after Spooky Season. It's very Christmassy. Holiday. It is a Christmas, it does take place on Christmas Eve. That'd be kind of fun to like watch this holiday season to watch holiday movies that are like kind of not holiday movies. Like gremlins, like gremlins, like diehard. I fucking hate Die Hard. I'll watch it. But like that. I'll watch it. And go. And if there's any others, I bet we all fucking wants to watch Die Hard. And I'm like, I'm leaving. Like, I just I hate action movies like that. Unless they're superheroes. Oh, that'll make sense. Anyway, you good. You're good. Um I don't have hardly any I said, I said that um that's all I have. I thought it was also interesting the writing around how Andy didn't feel anything about Harvard. Okay. So personal uh experience with this. I've been on a few antidepressants in my life. The first one I took was when I had postpartum um issues after Caden. Okay. And I took one, and that's exactly how it made me feel. And the sentence where she said, I know that like it's supposed to kind of like numb the lows, but it also numb the highs. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt. And it's weird because you have to feel like that for a while because you're just trying to survive, right? When you're like if you've never been on antidepressants, let me tell you how an experience can go. Whether you're depressed or you're anxious, you need something to get you out of there. But sometimes if you're on the wrong kind of one or a certain type of one, it can just make you feel level, but you have no highs or lows. It's just neutral. So when she said that, I was like, that makes complete sense to me. Yeah. Because that's why I ended up getting off of that one and I never went back on it. The next time around, when I had to take them again, I said to my doctor, I don't want to be on this drug because this is how it made me feel. Yeah. And she said, Oh, okay, well, we'll try a different type. And that one worked because it took off the lows, but I still was able to feel like myself. Because I didn't feel like myself, because I am not a neutral person, like at all. And neither is Andy. No, neither is Andy. Like when like I feel like when she feels something, she feels it a thousand percent. Same for me. And that sucks when you're feeling sad because you feel it a thousand percent. It's not just a drip drop, it's a lot. Oh man. But that means when you have your highs, they're very, very exciting and high. So you have to have that neutral feeling for a while just to get you out of that, and then you kind of have to shift your meds and all the things. Right. So I totally understood that. And again, I can't think back to necessarily when I first saw that, but that concept that you've just described, I don't think I really had heard or understood until later than this, yeah, like in my life. And so I think um that was an important perspective to have what you've just described. Yeah, because one, then if you ever are using them for the first time and you feel that way, you don't think it's you, or you're like, oh wait, this is what happened. And it's a really common side effect, or if you're already on it and you feel that way, then you kind of feel seen. Yeah. Because you're like, this is supposed, but and even antidepressants aside, that happens sometimes anyway. True. When you are really holding out for this one thing, and when you get the one thing or the one thing happens, and you're like, oh. Right? Which is as we get older and the age we are now, you know, I'm I'm trying to get better at like not always just focusing on that end goal. Right. Because I've gotten to those before and felt like climactic, right? Instead of being like, Yes, I would like to get to this point, I'm gonna enjoy everything along the way, or I'm not going to expect it to change my life or to be whatever. I'm just going to see what happens. Yeah. You know, and so I thought for both things, for the antidepressant reason and just life in general, yeah. Sometimes the thing, the big moment doesn't feel the way you think it should. Yeah. And that happens. Yeah. And that's okay. Absolutely. And it can be anticlimactic. It's like, you know, a lot of people talk about that with their wedding, right? It's like so much buildup, and then you get there and you're like, what? Didn't happen for me because we got married in Vegas and it was great. But it was awesome. Yeah. Uh, but you know, it can happen like that. You build up to this big event, and then it's like, what? I don't. Yeah. I feel tired. Like, I don't know. Right. Right. Right. Or the moment passes, and then you're like, now what? Now what do I do? This is what I've like invest definitely. Weddings are like that, right? They've been fed. Yeah, Christmas is kind of like that. Like it can be, you know, and you feel that little bit of letdown, even though the thing you wanted happened. You know, that's real life there. Yeah. So I'm glad that they addressed that. I really am, and I've already been coming around on this, but I'm really coming around on Jack and Andy's dad. I thought he was just right in this episode. I'm glad they're they gave him that arc. I really am. It's it's really working out because then obviously he's so excited about Harvard, and that was really cute, and she's in the jacket. And then he's like, I'm gonna go call all my alums. And I thought that was cute. And then when they're in the hospital, right away he's like, I'm not upset with you. And then but then it opened the door for Jack to be like, Well, I am. Right. And the feelings are valid. And I liked that though. Yeah. I thought that was a better presentation coming from Jack instead of the parent who you would assume would be like, What were you thinking? And blah, blah, blah. You're throwing your life away and this and that. The dad was like, It's okay. Yeah. Like, I'm just glad you're safe. Right. And and then the brother was like, You idiot. Why'd you do that? And you know, sometimes as a parent, you feel both things at once. Totally. Like, you know, I I've told my kids so many times, like, I'm glad you're okay, but I'm really upset with you. Sure. Like, sure. And and it's okay, and I forgive you, but I still am upset with you. Like, you shouldn't have done that. Right. Right. I totally agree. That's that's a hard thing as a parent, especially if it there, you know, it harmed like that bar. Yeah, that far. Um, what did you think about the part where Drew? Oh, by the way, oh yeah. D-R-U-E. That is how Amazon and in the credits they spell his name. D-R-U-E, Drew Valentine. Um when he said to Jen the thing about how because the ecstasy came from Jen, sort of. Andy took it without Jen knowing, and Jen didn't encourage her to take it and that sort of thing. Um, but then Drew's like, you know, wow, your friend sure turned on you fast, and was basically like pointing out that they all kind of teamed up together on team. Well, and then I was like, he's not wrong. He's not wrong. They didn't even ask her like what the deal was. Now, I do think she should have told, I understand, like she was trying to like keep it under wraps for Andy. She should have told Jack from the jump. Also, she was this was weird. She was so worried about someone staying with Andy. Oh, I know, but then she didn't stay with Mario. I know. Like later on when she like comes back, she's like, Where is she? I'm like, wait a minute, why didn't you just I know? Well, she went to get water, but come on, I know. But I I feel like she should have told Jack, but then they they had no they didn't need to blame her. Like she didn't know that Andy took it, she didn't give it to her. No, it's not her fault. No, it's not, it's not, but I just thought that was I was like, you know, they are pretty quick to turn on Jen sometimes. I know. And Drew Valentine is not wrong. I know, although he's kind of sleazy and just trying to lock it all to his advantage. But like I was like, he's not wrong. He's not. So Andy is okay, yeah. Yay. And um, I guess we'll see. What else did you have on this episode? I was gonna say that's all I had too. I just said I knew Andy would take X. Wow, good for me. Picking up on I knew she was doing X. I predicted it, you guys. They must have done something in the writing that led me there. Um, I really like these episodes. I know. Hard hitting, hard hitting stuff. I mean it. I was I was like crying in both empire. I was too and I was like soul searching, and I was just like, I think I don't think I can do this anymore. I think they probably just hit different this week too because of the reunion. A hundred percent because I watched these yesterday, yeah. So it was like a lot, or well, yeah. Was it what is I watched them yesterday too? Was it yesterday or day before? Yeah, but the reunion was Monday. Monday. So I think I watched them maybe Tuesday. Anyway, I watched it after the reunion sometime. I don't even know. It's like intertwining with the reunion content we're seeing and what we're watching, yeah. And so many people, I don't know, have people message you like the stuff. Yeah, so many people I'm not they'd be like, Did you see this? And I'm like, Yes, who am I? I've seen everything. Hello. Um, but all right, well, thank you guys for sticking with us for season four. We're gonna keep on sending out in the universe all our love to James Vanderbeek and his family. And um, we'll see you next time on Dawson's Creek Rewatch here on Generation in Between. Thanks, guys, bye.