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Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast
Xennial co-hosts Dani and Katie talk about their analog childhoods, digital adulthoods and everything in between. If you love 1980's and 1990's pop culture content, this is the podcast for you!
Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast
Xennial Girl Summer: Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret
Did your childhood crushes have nicknames like Moose?
Did you ever wonder if a higher power could hear you, even though you weren't sure what you believed?
If you must increase your bust (or needed to as a pre-teen), you might be a Xennial reader who loved Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret, the Judy Blume classic.
Join us for our Xennial Girl Summer series, where we re-read and re-watch classics from our childhoods.
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Hello, hello, generation Inbetween, this is our first episode of our Zennial Girl Summer. Yay, we are going to have several episodes where we talk about books and movies from the 80s and 90s. We have a list of four books we're going to read this summer and four movies we're going to watch. You can find it on our socials. Yep, go check it out that you can read along with us or watch along with us and you'll see the dates that the episodes are going to go live. Yes, it's also good for us. It's going to make us record them and issue them on those days, on the correct days.
Speaker 2:TBD, but you know it's okay. No, I think we've got it.
Speaker 1:And this is our kickoff. This is our kickoff. So we had to start with a book that is a Zennial girl classic and it has been a classic not just for Zennials but across generations since it came out. And that is the book Are there, god? It's me margaret by judy bloom um, who is amazing. Yes, uh, literally I just watched her documentary. There's a documentary on netflix called um judy bloom forever or forever judy bloom. One of the ways that it's so good, you have to watch it. Oh my gosh, okay, it's so good. Also, you have to watch it. Oh my gosh, okay, it's so good. Also, she has a bookstore in Key West that is, she's there. You can go and meet her and like, you can call the bookstore and be like is Judy in today? And they're like oh yeah, judy will be here from 11 to two and you can just pop in and she just chit chats. So one day maybe we'll make it down there.
Speaker 2:I love that Zenial girl road trip. Maybe it's a road trip for us. It's six hours, six or seven hours.
Speaker 1:It's a long road trip. It's long. This state is huge, that we're in my car has karaoke.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, can we? Could we get six or seven hours on one charge? No, no, no, I'd have to stop and charge.
Speaker 1:And I'll have a better idea of how often when Kaden and I drive to Florida State, which is six hours. Yeah, which is six hours. So I don't know, I haven't driven at long distances yet. But it's cool because you can plan out Like it can tell you where all the supercharged stations are, so you can plan out your route, so you can charge along the way.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that. Okay, so we'll go see Judy Blume, we'll figure it out, Okay so here we go.
Speaker 1:I'm going to give a little background and then we're just going to talk about the book. We did both read it. Yes, not very long. This is the shortest of our book selection, definitely, yeah, yeah. So Are you there, god? It's Me, margaret. Here's the summary. It's a story of Margaret Simon, a 12-year-old girl navigating the complexities of puberty, religious identity and friendships during her sixth grade year. The novel explores themes of interfaith family life, the search for religious meaning and the challenges of adolescence. Love that.
Speaker 2:Great summary, I know.
Speaker 1:It is a good I didn't write it.
Speaker 2:I mean but that's it. Whoever wrote that? Whoever wrote that? So I mean but that's it. Whoever wrote that? Good job summary writer. So I mean.
Speaker 1:I think first of all, before we jump into too much other stuff, the fact that it was published in 1970, and 12 year olds are still reading it now, in 2025. And it still feels pretty relevant. That's something to be said of the writing of Judy Blume.
Speaker 2:Yes, I totally agree. So I don't know if you know this or not. How old was Judy Blume when she wrote this book?
Speaker 1:She was pretty this was her third published book. Okay, okay, I'm not sure it was her third published book. She had two prior, but she said this one she felt like was her first real book.
Speaker 2:I mean, if we're talking, this was published 55 years ago, we could probably Google it real quick. I'm just saying, like she was probably I mean, obviously she wasn't 12, but she was young. Yeah, I'll just look up when her birthday was and then we'll know, then we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1:Well, so anyway, she said it was her first real book. This is her quote the book where I just let go. I didn't know what I was doing, I just did it. You can probably understand that she said, and this is what came out, so 1938, she was born. Okay, wow, I think she's like 80 something. Now, yeah, she's in her 80s yeah.
Speaker 2:My goodness, yeah you go, judy Blume.
Speaker 1:Anyway. So she said the characters in the story are based on a combination of herself and her friends at age 12. So she said, of all the characters she's ever written about, margaret is one of the most autobiographical.
Speaker 2:Okay, so she would have been 32 when this book came out. Yeah, pretty young, yeah, pretty young. That's her third book too. You know what's funny is I do in my brain intertwine who I believe Judy Blume to maybe be and Margaret, yeah. So that's funny that she says that, and I think this was my first Judy Blume book I ever read, I think. And so that voice, because Margaret's telling you, see it through her storytelling to me sort of became synonymous with Judy Blume.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think maybe that's why this book has had such staying power is because there's so much of herself in it.
Speaker 2:I like how she said she just let go. Yeah, I'm doing that a little bit myself with my first book that's going to be published and I was writing yesterday and there's always like oh, do I want to write about that thing? And so I've just let myself write it all and I'm like I can edit later. But if that thought comes to me when I'm writing and I want to tell that story or delve into that thing, don't let it be like oh well, a do I want?
Speaker 2:to do it. What is anyone going to think? Just write it, and then you can always go back and be like oh, I don't know if I wanted to say that or that didn't come out right or whatever. I don't know if I want to tell this story, totally fine. But I like how she said. She just kind of let go, just let go and she said this is what came out. This is it.
Speaker 1:This is what came out, yeah, the first draft of the book she wrote in six weeks. Okay, isn't that crazy Six weeks.
Speaker 2:The first draft, yeah, okay, but still, but still, I'm guessing the final version was probably close-ish to the first draft. Yeah, and that's what's great about it is. So I read, I reread some, and then I also listened to some on audiobook. So I kind of toggled and I think, on audiobook especially, you realize how simple, simply constructed some of the writing is, and I don't mean like the ideas are simple, but it's a simple delivery. Yeah, because it is a 12 year old story, 12 year old girl, and that makes it great because you don't have to overthink what she's saying. She just says what she's thinking and this idea that she's talking to God or kind of not sort of talking to herself in a way, makes it so her real thoughts are being shared. Right, not the things she's going to actually share with the world, but as the reader or the listener, you're getting that inner monologue, which I think is really smart.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that was a really smart way to write this. So we're going to jump in right away that a lot of times when people hear the name of this book, they think about the controversy that has come around it in the years since it's come out. The controversy that has come around it in the years since it's come out, and the reason it's been considered controversial is because it talks very directly like you said, very simply, very directly about things like puberty, questioning religion and sexual curiosity all normal things for 12-year-old kids to experience. Yes, and there's no like shame around it. There's no like guarded language. She just says it Right. And here's what she said about it. She did an interview a few years back. She said I just wanted to be real, I wanted to be honest. I was small and not developed, and everything came later. To me, she was a late bloomer, so this was what I wanted desperately, and so does Margaret. To me. There was nothing wrong with thinking about getting your period and wanting your breasts to grow. It wasn't controversial in my mind.
Speaker 2:It was just true because all, most girls go through that, yeah, and and even if it's not those, let's say those two specific things, correct. It's something to do with growing up, your bodies, yeah, or your body or how you look, or comparing yourself to the people around you and your peers and I'm sure boys as well have their own version of that.
Speaker 1:Oh for sure they go through.
Speaker 2:We're seeing this through the eyes of a 12-year-old girl, so things like period and bra size are part of that. And I just think, even as an adult, that relatable feeling where it feels like everyone around you is doing better than you, or people like them more than you, or they are better than you or you're not doing enough or something's wrong with you, is something, is something like as humans we don't ever really shed, maybe as we get a little older and we've talked about being in your 40s and just been like whatever about everything, but it's kind of innate to who we are. Yeah, and even reading about a 12-year-old you're like, yeah, I felt like that then, but I still feel like that now, sometimes Correct I can remember.
Speaker 1:I still feel like that now. Sometimes. Correct, I can remember. I mean, I remember getting my first training bra. I remember the whole everybody starting to get their periods and I got mine young but I had friends who were late bloomers and they were so stressed about it and I was on the other side of the fence like God, I wish I did not have this period. Like you know what I mean and it's so funny. I hate that. That, like you, can't talk about periods Right Without people cringing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's fucking stupid and it's patriarchy. One hundred percent.
Speaker 2:Oh, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1:And yeah, yeah, and it's like you put that in a book and people are like oh, it's like hello.
Speaker 2:It's part of your natural body, right? And what was that movie just like a couple years ago, turning Red, oh yeah, where she talks about her period and people were all upset about that. They were all fucking freaking out and it's like. This is like an age appropriate way to talk about this thing, you know, and it is for you out there who are listening, who are not, in a body that has periods.
Speaker 1:It is like this stressful thing, on whatever end you're on, when people start getting it, because then you're like wait, I got mine too soon or I got mine too later, everybody else has theirs.
Speaker 2:Or when's it going to?
Speaker 1:happen, when's it going to happen? And it's stressful. And now we kind of live in a time where I feel like it is a little more celebrated. You know, they have those like period parties and, like you know, my, our friend, jamila, who's been on here, made these really cool period kits so for, like a girl's first period, to kind of celebrate like this next phase of life. And but we didn't have that, especially when this book was written.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was like secret and hush hush and right and just you and your mom in the bedroom with the door shut, like talking about it or whatever. Um, my, my first daughter that got her period. Obviously we she already knew about all of that before it even happened. But like I helped with that. And then from now on I'm like, all right, help your sisters, yeah. So then when the next one happened, I'm like go talk to your sister.
Speaker 1:Well, they'd much rather talk to their sister than their mom. I'm like go talk to your sister.
Speaker 2:You know to the point that my third one the other two made her I mean it was a shoe box and filled it with stuff and, like, gave it to her you know to have and out of it when she needs it, you know, and so it's.
Speaker 1:It is one of those things and we do talk just frankly about it and the people in our homes who do not have a body that has a period they don't even create like they're just like there when we're talking about it.
Speaker 2:Well, here's the thing.
Speaker 1:Men need to understand how women's bodies work too. I mean, you need to understand how bodies work in general, no matter what gender you identify with or what sexual preference you have. You need to understand human bodies of all shapes, sizes, forms. And it's so funny because a few years back I realized my husband did not understand a tampon in its entirety. Yeah, and I'm like you are in and listen, I'm not making fun of him, it's not really his fault. I was like you are in your mid forties, or maybe it was his early forties.
Speaker 1:At this point I was like well, we're going to have a conversation about this and I need to make sure my kids know, like cause, whether or not they're they're going to marry women or not marry any women at all, they're going to have women in their life and they need to understand what's going on. And I remember one of my kids had a very weird um, I won't say which one cause, that's their business, but I told them I'd rather you ask me about things than like try and go Google. Like yeah, I'd rather you ask me about things than like try and go Google. Like yeah, I'd rather you ask me and I will tell you an age appropriate answer. If it's time for that, yes, okay. So one of them said to me well, I'm confused about periods. They literally thought, oh no, they literally. And they were young, so they literally thought blood shot out of a vagina like pop, like projectile like projectile blood menstrual flow.
Speaker 2:Oh, I know well, that probably was terrifying to correct.
Speaker 1:Oh, so I had to quickly say no. It more kind of drips out and if you, if you're listening and you didn't know, I'll tell you now.
Speaker 2:Well, like they say in the book she said it feels like who is it? Is it Gretchen or Janie that gets it first?
Speaker 1:I don't remember.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's Gretchen, and then she's like and Nancy is like what? Yeah, I got to tell us everything and it's like it just feels like nothing. Or if you feel anything, it feels like dripping.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it feels like dripping. I mean, sometimes it feels like more than dripping.
Speaker 2:Although they kind of underplayed. And I mean, I think, when you're young, yeah, oh yeah. They're like it doesn't hurt.
Speaker 1:It doesn't whatever. Like I feel like that is important to recognize is everyone's body reacts differently to menstrual cycles. Everyone's does, and at different ages your body does different things. I mean, when I was young, mine were awful, painful, like I would miss school every month and then I had to get on like medicine to help that. But I think for most girls at that young age it's probably not like what I went through, right, so, um, anyway.
Speaker 1:So speaking of periods, yes. So speaking of controversy and banned books, this book has earned almost a permanent spot on the American Library Association's list of challenge books. Wow, almost there's a few years it's not on there and then it comes back. Okay. So here's interesting. When the book was published, judy Blume was so excited. She gave three copies to her children's elementary school at the time and they were never put on the shelves. Yeah, judy said on her blog a few years back. This is what she said the male principal decided that the book was inappropriate because of the discussion of menstruation, never mind how many fifth and sixth graders already had their periods. And that was her first experience with her book being banned in her personal life.
Speaker 2:In her, like personal life man. You know what that's inspiring, though I mean, think about it. You kind of just can't let the opinions of anyone sway you, right, because that would be one where it's like, it's very personal. It involves your children, correct, and their teachers and administrators, who are basically saying that your book's not good enough or is somehow inappropriate to put on their shelves. Yeah, so imagine if, like that, deterred you and all the millions and millions of copies that this book has sold and, as you mentioned, people are still reading it.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, yeah it has sparked.
Speaker 2:You know, that's again. Maybe it's just because I'm like oh, I'm writing a book and you just have to, even if there's someone close to you that doesn't agree with what you wrote, if you in your heart know that that was what, whether it's a book, whether it's a blog, whether it's just something you set out loud, yeah, if you stand by that, then what you're saying has value, Of course, and it is going to reach the right people, unless they don't put it on the shelf and then the people don't get to see it. But you know, whatever, yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 1:It's interesting too that she made sure to say the male principle. Yeah, because it was like oh, menstruation. Like you know, men have been trying to control talk about women's bodies and what happens to women's bodies since the dawn of time. I mean, have you ever read that book, the Red Tent? No, I haven't read that one. Well, it's basically like that's where they would shove the women when they were menstruating or having babies. They just shoved them all in a red tent, but they turned it into this place where women could be open with each other and anyway, but like instead. But it's so interesting because it's like well, instead of just using this book as a way to discuss real life, it's like let's just shove it away and pretend like it doesn't exist, right, and make girls feel like that's something to be ashamed of.
Speaker 2:And to shove away and not discuss or write about.
Speaker 1:Or that it's gross or nasty or whatever Right. Like it's none of those things. Well, you may have personal feelings, yeah, like you might be, like I feel gross.
Speaker 2:But it's not gross in itself?
Speaker 1:No, of course not, it's just a bodily thing that has to happen for our civilization to continue, and you can't control it, even if you wanted to. I mean you can, but it still happens. But I'm just saying yeah. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, totally so the book is from 1970 and it's actually had a few little modern edits. Oh, interesting, but not many. Okay, the main one was it still takes place in the 70s. The main one was it still takes place in the 70s, but the main edit that I found was that pads are used now like the sticky maxi pads instead of in the original book. I don't know if you remember this from when you were a kid. They had the sanitary napkins with the belts. I remember that.
Speaker 1:Because, for those of you that don't know, because you might be young and you may not realize this but maxi pads that like stick on underwear, now those weren't invented until the 80s, I think, something like that and so the way you used to have to deal with it was such a mess. Look it up on Google to see what women had to fucking deal with. Right, you would have to wear this belt around your waist and it would hook. It would have these little hooks that would keep the thing on your underwear, the pad.
Speaker 2:Thankfully I never had to deal with it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean by the time.
Speaker 2:We had the sticky by the 90s or whatever. We had our sticky ones, but I remember that now that I Because the one I just reread is a modern one that I got from the library and the audiobook is the modern version. I mean, it's the same version but with the edits, and so I didn't hear that. And now that you say that, I remember reading it before I got my period and wondering how that was going to work.
Speaker 1:I remember asking because I have a sister who's seven years older than me, so I knew about periods real early on, just because the shit was everywhere. And my mom's a nurse. So, like I knew about periods real early on just because the shit was everywhere, right, sure, and and my mom's a nurse, so, like everything was medical and I I don't like medical things, so they would have to force me to hear about things. Anyway, I remember asking about this, whether I asked my sister or my mom when I read this book, like what in the world Belts? And they explained to me cause there was no Google. Guys, like we didn't couldn't just Google it on a laptop or our phones. Um and God, what a pain in the ass, huge pain, yeah, not good. And they also in in the book, the modern update. They mentioned tampons as well, which also weren't a prevalent thing. So, right, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right, they do talk about those yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so anyway, the only last little bit of thing I have before I have some discussion question. When they did make the movie a couple years back in 2023, judy Blume was actually one of the producers. Oh good, but people had been approaching her for years to make a film version of this book and she was like no, she said it just didn't feel right. And then she finally met with the, the people, and she was like okay, yeah, I want to be a part of this.
Speaker 2:I saw the movie. Yeah, I haven't seen the movie. I saw it in the theater and it was. It was really good, Good.
Speaker 1:I need to watch it.
Speaker 2:Really enjoyed it. Uh, rachel McAdams was the mom, which was sort of disconcerting, I know Right, because I was like I mean, she's older than us, I think, or maybe I think she's our age, I think she's our age and I mean I'm a mom to kids that age, so it's not that big a deal. But it kind of threw me off for a second.
Speaker 2:I know she was just in like jeans and a t-shirt, and I'm just used to her. I don't know Regina George or the no Fucker or whatever, but she was great. Okay, and the little girl who played Margaret, margaret, was fantastic and I think for the most part they kept to the book. You know anything for a movie, you got to cut a few little side stories.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so sorry, I just kicked the laptop stand.
Speaker 2:I'm surprised we haven't done that yet. Well, it happened today. Sorry guys, there was a little earthquake, okay. Well, we're good. The earthquake was Danny. I'm trying to keep my blood circulating in my life. Yeah, we've been here a while, so I get that. So any all that to say. If you haven't seen the movie, you definitely should watch it, I will. And it makes sense that she's a producer on it, because it definitely does justice to the story. I think it does. Okay, all right.
Speaker 1:Cool, all right, well, so I got a few discussion questions, most of the ones I found, most of the ones I found are like for young kids not young, but for like you know 12, 13, 14 year olds.
Speaker 1:That didn't really. It would have been weird for us to answer them. So I just got a few and obviously it'll spark discussion for other things. Like Katie and I did not take notes when we read the book, we just read it. So it's kind of like we're at a book club and we're going to just talk about Okay, talk about the book. So this one I want to talk about because I thought this was so interesting in the whole book especially. I remember thinking it was interesting as a kid and then as an adult still finding it interesting. So here's the first one why do you think Margaret is so interested in religion? Why does she talk to God even though her parents don't practice a religion? We'll talk about the rest of it in a minute.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, that is an interesting view. Yeah, I don't know the answer to that.
Speaker 1:I remember thinking how fascinating it was when I was a kid, because I grew up going to a Methodist church. Parents were practicing Christians and I didn't really know anybody else who was another religion until later. But I remember thinking when I was a kid, reading it, it was interesting how her parents had both, like she had influences of both, but they chose nothing. And I appreciated their stance on saying it's up to you to choose when you're older, what you want to follow. Now, I don't know if they did the same thing in the movie, but they did Okay, it was the same. Now, I don't know if they did the same thing in the movie, but they did OK, it was the same. And I think she's so interested in it because she's 12 and you want to know about things, yeah, and her parents have let her be curious.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah. So I think she's curious about God, in whatever form. That is, not necessarily God associated with a religion, right, god associated with a religion Right. But this idea that there's a being out there, kind of maybe looking out for you or that in a way could control things because that's certainly something you want at that age and any kid wants is that reassurance that something out there's got your back, that something's going to keep you safe, that something has the answers that you don't have or your parents don't have, or your friends don't have it always kind of had reminded me, and so, and definitely when I reread it this time of like a dear diary, yes, but dear diary is a little different, because you're you're really talking to yourself and you know that Well, you're getting it on paper.
Speaker 2:Or you're just pissed like Danny and you're mad at everybody else I did like a lot of boys, though, so I know or you're just pissed like Danny, and you're mad at everybody else.
Speaker 1:I did like a lot of boys, though. You did like a lot of boys, I know.
Speaker 2:But she tells God about the boys she likes.
Speaker 1:That's right. Which here's what I really liked about the way I agree with you. I think she's I don't know if she's really even talking to God, I think it's just, and I appreciated the times where she's like, please, god, just let my period come. Or like you know, because sometimes I remember, even as an adult, treating praying as like a wish oh sure, almost, oh sure, like. So here's my wish list. Go ahead and check that off for me, mr Jeannie up there, right, but I love that. She was just so honest.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 2:You know, which is a really, at its core, a very wholesome, pure view of God, yeah, that you can bring God, whatever that looks like to you, your true self, uh-huh, and be your true self with God and have no judgment, like literally no response.
Speaker 2:You know, like it's just sort of putting it there and I like that. I know when I was growing up, when we would say prayers out loud, my dad would always say the first thing you do is pray for someone else, like kind of like that wishlist situation that you're talking about, so like something, whether someone's sick or just want them to have a good day, or whether it's your sibling or your parents or a friend or a teacher or a grandparent, and then it's almost like, once you've done that, then the things you pray for have a different perspective on them. You know, which I always kind of appreciated, I guess. But I think her view of God, like you said, I don't think it's believing in God necessarily, it's more just like having that thing to vent to. That I think. And, like you said, her parents aren't saying to her there is no God, right, they're saying you there's nothing out there.
Speaker 2:They're saying we've decided to step away from organized religion and we're just going to raise you neutrally.
Speaker 1:And then you, whatever direction you take, and they were okay with her going to church with her friends or grandma.
Speaker 2:When she wanted to go to temple with her grandma and then when she wanted to go to church with her friends, they, they were fine with that. You know which I?
Speaker 1:thought was good. I think that's a really good. I think that's a really good stance on religion. As someone who used to be on the other side of things with my kids, you know where you're like make them go to church, make them do the classes, make them do the things. I think it's a lot smarter to kind of leave it open, give them the resources if they want them, which a lot of people don't like because they're like well, they're kids. Yeah, I get it. I know I don't know. The older I get, the more broad my worldview and my opinions on everything kind of gets, and I hope that the older they get, they also feel like that. But when you're young it's hard to think abstractly. You want to think in black and white, you want something to be this or that, and I think maybe Margaret was trying to find that. You know.
Speaker 2:I think so Definitely.
Speaker 2:And you know, religion or belief in something outside of what we can see does come with kind of a structure of its own, a being you can go to in those moments when you feel like you can't talk to your parents or your friends and you know she's an only child, like there's not a sibling component there.
Speaker 2:So I think that's interesting. And what I really liked too is the parents, even though there's like that part in the book where the dad's kind of mad at the mom for sending a Christmas card to her parents. But that's real life, like married people have disagreements. But I liked that they were just so on the same team with everything that had to do with Margaret Everything, but certainly the religion stuff that it wasn't a big deal and neither one questioned the other and it was just like this is how we're together raising our child. And I thought that that was really even in the moments when, like Sylvia, the Jewish grandmother was involved or the Christian grandparents from Ohio as a unit. The two of them didn't change their stance, yeah, and didn't throw each other under the bus, right.
Speaker 2:It was like no, no. Or when people were like, oh, she doesn't go to Sunday school, or whatever, they were like no, you know, like, oh well, that's what we believe, mm-hmm, you know. So I just thought that that was cool In the 1970s.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's pretty radical. I mean well in this, where they were living, I don't mean like everywhere in the world.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And they were like living in a suburban community of you know a waspy area. Well, and like the other moms, kind of being like oh, your mom paints and they're like on Wednesdays we do this, and on Mondays we do this, and on Mondays we do this, and on Sundays we carpool. And I'm like Jesus, I've lived that life.
Speaker 2:Y'all don't even know, Y'all don't even know In the movie they go into the mom's story a little more oh okay, which is great. Not that there's additions to the story, but she does go to a PTA meeting or two. There are parts where she's feeling well. First she's in a new space where she's feeling kind of like an other, an outsider, but always comes back to who she is, and they really did a good job with that in the movie, I think, kind of painting her as more of a whole person, I think, and like that. She was struggling with some things at the time as well and I thought that that was really good, because then in the moments when her and Margaret are both struggling together, I don't know it. Just it was done really well.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm going to have to watch it. Speaking of the mom, here's your next question. Okay, my battery is going to die at some point In what ways do Margaret's parents play stereotypical gender roles? In what ways do Margaret's parents play stereotypical gender roles and how do Margaret and her friends buy into these stereotypes about how girls should act and look? Here's another part of it how and why do some of the boys at school emphasize stereotypical expectations about female bodies?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Oof, lots, lots there, lots there.
Speaker 2:So the stereotypical gender roles I guess I'm going to plug in my computer. Okay, keep talking. Well, first of all, the mom. You know she's a stay at home mom. Yeah, they live, and she kind of gave up her career, slash whatever which was art and painting, to be mom so that dad can go work the corporate job in the city but they can live a suburban life. So there's that, there's also in the book. They do this but they didn't really talk about it that much in the movie where the mom has to kind of convince the dad to buy another car. Do you remember that part? So it comes up a few times and Margaret's always like but I know she'll get her way, she always does, she has a way with my dad or whatever. She could get up early to take him to the bus stop, which is what he pointed out, but no, she's going to end up with her own car. And I was just kind of like I mean, if the family needs a car or the family?
Speaker 1:needs a car.
Speaker 2:It's not like mom should be pleading her case for that, especially if that's the decision you've made in your family, that right now that's her. Where she's, you know, gonna be in in charge during the day is the home and the car and the child and all the things. Give her the car, yeah, so I thought that was one that really stood out, and I don't know otherwise. I didn't think it was too bad. I think there's a part where the dad's cooking.
Speaker 1:I mean, there were a few things in there, I think um, the, you know in the it's funny in the book because the girls dress, you know they, they wear the little dresses and skirts and like, um, I wish I would have wrote down more. Um, yeah, but since we're already there about talking about girls and bodies, is the stereotype, stereotypes they have placed upon that one young laura, who has developed early, and it's so unfortunate because I remember girls who developed earlier automatically had this persona placed upon them. Yep, Some of them didn't know what to do and I can look at this in hindsight now didn't know what to do except play into it, sure, and some were just like Laura and just so embarrassed and like shy and like you know they, they create this whole narrative around her that she goes behind the A&P with boys because she has boobs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how is that correlated? Yeah, and when it finally comes to a head, right, when Margaret says something to her and everything that Laura says back is so wholesome and like oh wait, she's also 12 and inexperienced and the way her body looks has nothing to do with anything.
Speaker 2:And essentially she says that she's like do you think it's easy to be bigger and to be more developed and to look older? Like it's not. And I, even as a kid I remember, I know that sort of stereotype in the book. And then that conversation with Margaret has always stuck with me. I know Because I remember middle school and early high school if there was talk of a girl's body that way or something that I automatically would resist that and be like well, that's not right and maybe I would have anyway. But I know reading this book had something to do with that, had something to do with me, my critical thinking going oh, that's like Laura and that that was really sad because everyone was mean to her and she didn't have friends and the boys were lying about her. And hey, maybe boys are lying about this girl too, or even if they're not like you know what I mean like just yeah, kind of being like a body's a body and they're all different.
Speaker 2:when I think to a lot of the stuff that girls say is because they're jealous oh, of course you know, they want the boobs and they want their period and they want the boys to notice them and they want to be tall, and but then Laura's like I want to look like you, yeah, but I she's like.
Speaker 1:All you want is to blend in is to fit in out yeah. You know, like you, just until you get to a point where you want you want to stand out right, Sure. But middle school is that time where, like everybody's awkward, Everybody's bodies are doing weird stuff Totally, You're either waiting for something to happen or you're freaking out because something's happening. You know, it's just like such a weird awkward time which is why I think Judy Blume wrote from a 12-year-old girl's perspective is because it is such a weird time.
Speaker 2:It is Like if she was in grade school, for example. I guess she technically is in sixth grade, but if she was third or fourth grade or if she was ninth or 10th grade, it's different. It would be a totally different perspective.
Speaker 1:Those few years are like and we both have kids. You know, in that time, and it's just a weird, you could not, literally could not pay me to go back and live that again.
Speaker 2:Not those years, no, never, ever ever. No, ma'am.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I do think, okay, so let's talk about their little. We must, we must, we must increase our best. That's also a hard thing because I feel like the idea of what makes somebody a female, right, they're like, oh, we have to have boobs, we have to have whatever that is. That's super antiquated in this book, sure, Right, sure. And I can remember thinking like, oh, I got to have, you know whatever, boobs to be considered pretty or whatever.
Speaker 2:And you don't, you don't. It's antiquated. But I also. One thing I really thought of this time when I was reading that is that there is an excitement around that.
Speaker 1:No, and there is, and that's the other, that's. The other side of the coin is that all girls are excited to become women.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, and what goes with that? I mean it's hard to be a woman, and that that starts from girlhood. Yeah, so to then be excited about getting the bra or or noticing that you have boobs or curves, or your period or whatever all these things, yes, I think. I think it's definitely antiquated and, like in that example of we must increase our bust, it's like one girl's idea that everyone then has to do. So that's different than you just being like oh, I wish my boobs would grow a little bit.
Speaker 1:Well, and then I think about people too, like our trans friends, right, who it's? That's the beginning of a really hard time. Yeah, because you are in a body. That's not what you feel on the inside, you feel trapped, and that's kind of when it starts is because now your body's doing all these changes and it's like, ah, oh, no, like this. But now, like I was thinking about that a lot in this book, things I never would have thought about then, that I'm interested to see if they wrote it, would have thought about then, sure, that I'm interested to see if they wrote it, if they wrote a similar book along these same lines now how they would address some, you know, if they did it from a different point of view. And there are books out there like that. I mean, I'm not saying there's not, there are, there are books like out there from from different perspectives. But I think too it's that. I think maybe what it is is that being a female looks one certain way.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah Right, which you really feel in this book, but I will say it's sort of perpetuated by the characters that you kind of don't like as well. Yeah, so, like the Nancy's and I actually did write a little note I said is Nancy OK, because that's literally what I wrote, because so if you haven't read the book in a while and you know keeping track of all the names, nancy's the little neighbor who invites her to come run through the sprinklers the first day she's there and gives her and she's very worried about clothes and clubs and not wearing socks and getting boobs and the we must increase our bust is her idea, and this club and they have a list of playboy magazine and the playboy magazine, yes, all the things, and I don't know not to like be dark, but I'm like, did something happen to Nancy?
Speaker 2:Like I had that moment where I was reading it this time and I was like she's so hyper-focused on that stuff. But I knew people like this, so or is it just that some people are naturally more curious about?
Speaker 1:I think it's that, but I just had a moment where I was like oh, I oh fun fact about Nancy Wheeler.
Speaker 1:By the way, that's her name in the book. If you are a Stranger Things fan, there is a character called Nancy Wheeler in the first season. I love that. But the creators of Stranger Things said no, it is not related to this book, they were not inspired by this book. Okay, so that came up in my research. I was like, oh shit, I didn't even think about that, nancy Wheeler. Anyway, yeah, so the Playboy things, as I said that I did enjoy how they talked. She was just so direct about it, how she was like oh my, my dad has a subscription and it used to be here, but now I find it in his nightstand and like he's hiding it now, basically, and it's like okay, like it's. I can remember going to friends' houses and looking for some. Well, one friend's mom had Playgirl as well.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and just the fascination with that. Well, and it's normal.
Speaker 1:Like because, guys, this is pre-internet. Like yes.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, you're a young lady who hasn't developed those things yet. You're going to be curious about how they would look, which like, unfortunately, like looking at Playboy and all that is sort of like. Well, no, you're not.
Speaker 1:No that's not what a lot of people look like, but even the girls are like, maybe in the 70s Maybe.
Speaker 2:But even the girls reading the book were like oh, she's kind of top heavy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're like she doesn't look right.
Speaker 2:And they're like oh, maybe Laura will look like that one day, or whatever they said, but like it, yeah. And even that was presented like, like, just matter of fact, matter of fact, even like yeah, yeah, I used to be in the bathroom, but now I actually have to, like go open a drawer to find it. How funny is that?
Speaker 1:And my heels are turning. I'm just laughing Like oh it used to be in the bathroom, but now it's on the nightstand and I'm like, oh, and they don't really know why, Like we know as adults and I probably missed that as a kid as well. I probably did too.
Speaker 2:But I'm like, oh, that's so funny, because I was just I remember maybe don't remember, but I would imagine as a kid when I read this and that part, I was just so panicked about her getting caught Probably. I was like, oh, it's your mom, I'm going to find her. And then they like look at it and nothing happens. And I was probably just like, oh good, they didn't get in trouble. I can just see myself. That's probably the exact internal talk I had with myself. That's great At the time that I read it.
Speaker 1:I don't, I don't know what I thought I don't know, but anyway, okay, let me see what else we got, and then we can. We probably have to shut it down soon.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is a good one to end on Two questions. What moments from the novel, whether it be through voice, detail, description or emotion, brought you back to childhood, and what can? What lessons can Margaret teach us, no matter our age?
Speaker 2:Oh, hmm, the bringing back to childhood when she, when she talked about her mom doing her hair, oh, I felt that, yeah, because I remember my mom rolling my hair or like we did, like the, the rags in the hair at night to make it curly, or braids to make it crimpy, and that that wasn't a daily thing. Or braids to make it crimpy, and that that wasn't a daily thing. But if I had a birthday party or a wedding or a performance, like I remember that, yeah, that the hair was like a big thing um, that's probably the big one and and running through sprinklers, like having your neighbors just come knock on your door, that's how our neighborhood was. Um, the moms didn't like text each other because that wasn't a thing. Yep, if you want to play with your neighbor, you walk over there and see if they were home, you know. So just things like that made me feel nostalgic for childhood.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think for me like the thing that brought me back, because obviously I just thought I liked a lot of boys when I was a kid. I can remember being that age and have, like you know she talks about having a crush and like realizing that that that brother's friend is cute, and like I can like vividly remember all like starting to feel all those feels and not really knowing what to do with that. Like you're kind of like okay, like it's just a that sexual curiosity thing that they're talking about and it's I can remember that because it's such an awkward time. But it's just a that sexual curiosity thing that they're talking about and it's I I can remember that because it's such an awkward time, but it's also so exciting, yeah, you know, because it's all new and and she acknowledges that she thinks moose is cute.
Speaker 2:Yes, but then immediately it's like oh, but I'm not gonna put him on my boy list, right? So sort of just like a secret little yeah like how, from the beginning, we question our decisions about that kind of stuff and is is this is an acceptable person? Should I feel this way about this person, right when, like, at its core, attraction is just that, yeah, right, and you can choose what to do with it, but like it's you know cause maybe sometimes it's not appropriate, but whatever.
Speaker 1:Hello, we our whole discussion on crushes whenever that happens Exactly.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, and even at this age, you know, like the age that's in the book crushes happen at all ages.
Speaker 1:Once your body starts feeling, those feels.
Speaker 2:And I liked oh, another childhood one was when she went to temple. And then when she went to the church and described it, those feelings of like her, just not like. It's like kind of boring, yeah. And then she goes to the Christmas Eve one. She's like do I have to talk to your minister? And Nancy's like why would you talk to him?
Speaker 2:But the last few times she went to her religious thing she had to meet them and they wanted her to come back, and it was a whole thing and I was like, oh man, I remember that too, and like just the whole all of that. And I even remember in college going back home one weekend and I went to church with my parents and that was a whole thing. And then, even after I had my daughter, her and I went, and this was the last time we went to church together and the minister wanted to have her baptized. It was a whole thing and I remember just thinking I'm here mainly for my parents because they wanted us to come. I'm not here for any of this, so leave it be.
Speaker 2:And I think the sermon that day too was all about how Christians can't date non-Christians, and that bothered me. So it was a whole thing. It was like the slamming door for me, yeah, yeah, and that could have been just that environment that I was in. But I remember when she was talking about how she kind of felt at church, like I was like, oh, what she feels more when she's just communicating with god, and I felt that, yeah, yeah, I was like, okay, I understand that. And the scene where she goes into the confessional so funny, she follows laura yeah she's never been in a catholic, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So she goes into the box and she's like god, are you in here? And then, like the priest starts talking to her and she's like what she realizes, it's like a person, yeah, yeah, I thought that whole scene was really funny, I forgot about that part. Yeah, they do that in the movie.
Speaker 1:Yes, Okay, yeah, that part's in the movie I got to look Okay.
Speaker 2:So what is a lesson Margaret can to? Just I like how she was unapologetic about her faith. Journey, yeah, I agree, journey, I agree, and that applies to faith, but it applies really to anything that you, if you don't believe something or feel a certain way, even if everyone around you does you, that's okay. You don't have to like the part where the teacher says what do you hate? And she says I hate religious holidays. And then he's like hey, I want to talk to you, why do you hate those? And her whole internal monologue is in the book and she's like, oh great, I don't want to tell him. But then she ends up just going well, I'm not religious and I just don't identify with them and they kind of make me feel left out, and blah, blah, blah. And then she's just like, okay, yeah, and I was like, yeah, you know, and and even if he was like, well, I think that's bad, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:She was still willing to just put her truth out there, especially at an age where conformity. So in a lot of ways she's conforming in the book because that's appropriate for her age and all the things going on, and she just moved somewhere new which adds a whole other level because you just want to be part. But with the religious stuff she kind of stands her ground, like even with her grandmother. Her grandmother's like oh, we're going to do this, we're going to do that. She's like I just want to go check it out. Yeah, I was going to say that's it, no other commitment, no other, whatever. I, whatever, I want to go and see what it's all about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and she kind of draws a line in the sand there, yeah. And then when she kind of freaks out on her other grandparents and the parents and she's like why are you guys doing this? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you know that doesn't even I like. I like the way that's written that the grandparents leave and it's a bad ending Because you expect them all to be like you're right and let's come together. That's not realistic, that's not realistic. And the grandparents choose to leave and the dad's like see, like. And the dad even said something like I wonder if they were planning New York the whole time and the only reason they came was because it was convenient.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we had, we have had that in our lives, so and I thought that that was really good, because something like that, which is a big deal to not have your grandparents want to be part of your life, or, for her mom's case, her parents, and then when you do see them, it goes horribly wrong, but to kind of still be like but they're not my people and it's okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know we, shori and I, both have, you know, stuff in our families and I can remember a therapist telling me one time, because it's hard not to let yourself get in like a zone, and she basically said you just put your y'all's time and energy into the people under your own roof. Yep, I love that. And then anything else that comes along is is great, right, and people anything else that comes along is great and people. And just because people are blood related to you doesn't mean you have to do anything Right. So you know, like, for instance, in the book, those are her grandparents, but they are not accepting of the way that they're parenting, they are not trying to overcome that to still be a part of the granddaughter's life, and that's their choice and you have to just let them have that. Yes, and I think her parents do that, but then but it's like you know, her mom still has that small hope, like I know because it's hard, it's hard to be like.
Speaker 2:That's the nuance right. Correct that.
Speaker 2:That is how she would probably feel, because you still do hold on to the what, if, and she even says I want them to come see that I've done well without them, right, and that's human nature, absolutely. And then when you get that thing, you're like ugh, this feels kind of shallow and empty, like I was never doing this for them. I've always been doing this for me. I don't need their approval. Yeah, totally, totally agree with that. Oh I, what did I have here? Oh, I saw this in your notes to how they only discuss two religions. Yes, but I mean I guess you kind of have to because of those contexts. But when she was like I need to know if I'm going to the YMCA or the Jewish Community Center or whatever, but I was like, well, that's kind of binary on religions too, but I mean, you know it was about her life and her experiences, right?
Speaker 1:And for her, those were the two dynamics at play.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which totally makes sense. Yeah, and well, what do you think, margaret? Like what lessons can she teach us today?
Speaker 1:I mean, I agree with you on all of that and I think too, I appreciate just the direct discussion of girls' bodies and changing and realizing that girls are sexual beings too, that have a coming of age, just like boys, do you know? And they start having you know their feelings, and I really do think that, like talking about periods directly, like that, I like the sneak peek into girls' brains, Mm-hmm, Because I don't think we're given enough Agree that is valid Now. Granted, this is very particular to a certain class, a certain gender identity, a certain you know I get that, certain circumstances, but I do think I do like that. I think it. I think again, I've said this multiple times is I think there's a reason why people are still reading this book.
Speaker 1:And something else I saw in the Judy documentary people write, write, have written her letters over the years about how much they appreciated this book and she has saved a lot of them. She wrote back to a lot of them. This one girl on the documentary I want you to watch this, I won't say too much started writing to her and they kept a companionship over letters for like years. That's awesome. And she said she started writing to Judy Bloom, kind of the way Margaret did to God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really cool. I know that is really cool, I know, because then that makes I don't think we've used this phrase in talking about her talking to God in this episode but God's kind of her safe place. Yeah, and so for this person, judy Bloom's sort of her safe place, which, if you don't, she doesn't know her personally, but in the writing you can kind of feel that that this is a person talking about things directly, without shame, without whatever, and therefore maybe I can do the same thing with that person. Yeah, I think we could all strive to be, yeah, be our safe places.
Speaker 1:I agree, I agree and I think well, we're running out of time. We are. I think that's so good for our first book. So our next book is Flowers in the Attic. Yes, and if you've never read it you're going to be like why did y'all?
Speaker 2:pick this. You're going to be like why did y'all pick this? Oh, I cannot wait. I've never read it.
Speaker 1:Oh boy, I wanted to finish this one and this discussion.
Speaker 2:So nothing like overlapped in my brain, but at least in going live. We're going to have three weeks between for the books and then three weeks between for the movies offset, so I don't think it'll be three weeks before we record it necessarily, but I'm ready to like toggle. Oh, it's very different.
Speaker 1:Oh, I can't wait. It's very different. There's I'm not saying a word, I haven't read it. I haven't read it since I read it as a young, younger person and I'm ready to just be like oh my God, I love it.
Speaker 2:Okay, good, let's do it. And we got a few more good ones on the list. Yeah, we do. We do Check our list out on socials. Everyone Read along. Yep and welcome to our Zennial Girl. Summer Official.
Speaker 1:Official Give me a Zima with a Jolly Rancher. I thought you were going to start spelling.
Speaker 2:Give me an X, give me an E. I was like, uh-oh, no, zennial Girl in Sun in and Zima, that's it. And books and movies, all right, we'll see you next time, guys. Bye, bye.
