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Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast
Xennial co-hosts Dani and Katie talk about their analog childhoods, digital adulthoods and everything in between. If you love 1980's and 1990's pop culture content, this is the podcast for you!
Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast
Dawson's Creek, S2 E13 & E14: Movie Sets and Poetry Readings
Listen in as we discuss our rewatch of Dawson's Creek Season 2 episode —"His Leading Lady" and "To Be or Not to Be". Both delve into mental health stigma, and sexual identity, through the lives of the Capeside kids.
Join us as we rewatch Dawson's Creek, Season 2, on Hulu.
What classic teen shows shaped your understanding of identity and relationships? Let us know in the comments for this episode.
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Hello everyone and welcome back to our Nostalgic or Problematic series where we are re-watching season two of Dawson's Creek. And we actually kept our two-episode watch this week. We did it. So that's because Katie has a little more free time in her schedule. I do, I do, I was done early. Well, sort of I did finish part of the second one this morning, but I was ahead on the other one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a little more free time in her schedule, not a lot, just a little bit.
Speaker 1:It's surprising how much I don't have like right, but this. But I mean there's a lot going on at this moment so in theory I might have more time later. But but I will say, when we walked in this morning, the look of not having a lot of stress has been lifted upon you. It has gone away. Yes, so for listeners, we won't get into the long story, but my full-time job that I was at I am no longer at and I am just doing both my studios and writing books and doing this podcast and we'll see how long, economically, I can make that stay. But I will say I'm very happy, very happy. So we'll figure it all out. Yeah, I'm watching more Dawson's Creek, so I mean that's a win, that's a total win. Yeah, so this week we did two episodes. Now, now, on the flip side, it took me a hundred years to get through two episodes last night because I was watching it.
Speaker 1:Why don't? We don't have a TV in our bedroom, that's just the thing. We just don't do. Um, so I either will watch things on our living room TV or I'll go in our upstairs loft, okay, and last night I didn't want to go in the loft. I don't like to go up there because it's like our workout slash office, slash Troy's room, and I don't like to watch stuff up there. If I can help it, and also, it's just I don't. Whatever. I wanted the living room TV, okay, yes, fine, and I can't watch a lot of stuff downstairs if it's adult things, right, because people like the way our house is set up. It's an open floor plan, so I can't have a 12 year old walking in. If there's like a sex scene happening, right, I mean I could, but that would make us both very uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just inconvenient, yeah, anyway, but last night I got home from tab class and I was like I want to have snack dinner and a glass of wine and watch these two episodes of Dawson's Creek. I'm going to use the TV because Dawson's Creek is fine, it can be on TV in front of my 12. So I said I am using the TV everyone. And because I don't usually use the main TV, can I tell you how many times I had to hit pause Cause somebody come up in there or somebody's asking me a question? Troy comes downstairs tell me the fucking air conditioning upstairs is broken and that's dripping water and I need to call it the next day. So then I'm irritated, excited to like great. Now I got to reschedule my whole day. Anyway, all this, it took me 60,000 years to make it, but I did it and I made it and it's happening, yay.
Speaker 1:So episode episode 13 was called his leading lady. Okay, the summary is as dawson's new film mirrors his failed, his failed romance with joey, the truth about andy's medicine, stuns pacey, yep, that's it. I didn't love this episode. It was okay. I mean I just because I remembered a lot of it, yeah, and I'd like. I was like, oh, yeah, this is where that annoying kid comes in named tyler, and I'm like him, yeah, tyler. And then, um, or was it was tyler or tyson tyler? It was tyler, okay, but he goes by ty. Ty, that's true, but rachel lee cook shows up. This episode, yes, and here's such a funny thing.
Speaker 1:Rachel lee cook, who was like all over the place in the early 2000s, late nineties, my, when I was in college, I had a good friend, roommate, sorority, sister named Beth. I mean, she's still around. Sorry, that sounds like she still lives. We're still friends. Um, and she looked just like her and people all the time would stop her. Wow. And now, granted, you know how, like you, always, in college at least, or in your early twenties, you have one friend that you grew up with and you're like, well, nobody's going to pay attention to us tonight because she is so beautiful, she used to model and stuff, so we'd be like, well, like when we were all single. At the same time, we're like, well, guess what? Guess, it doesn't matter what we wear, nobody's looking at us anyway, Everybody's going to tell her she looks like Rachel Leigh Cook. And she did. It wasn't a lie, she did look like her. Yeah, well, I liked seeing her there.
Speaker 1:I was going to say I don't know why I said this in the opening scene, dawson, trying too hard, but I don't know why I said that. What happens before the intro music to this one? I can't remember. Oh, because him and Joey are watching movie together. That's what it was. And he's like, oh, look at us, it's our first movie. Yeah, instead of it just like being normal and okay, he had to point out how normal and okay it was. That's why I wrote that Thank, thank you for reminding me. And it's just like I love you, dawson. You don't have to deconstruct every moment of every day, but he's Dawson, that's what he does and that's what he does.
Speaker 1:And then, when they went to, I love the aesthetic of Andy's bedroom and she had that, the iMac on the desk, the clear one, and then her pink room. I just thought it was like so awesome, I know, I love that. I don't think we've seen the inside of her bedroom, have we? We've seen her bathroom? We have we saw the bedroom too. Maybe it was nighttime or something. Oh, because she's sitting in the rocking chair in the one right. This was the first time I like noticed her decor.
Speaker 1:Um, so the reason we meet Rachel Lee Cook is because Katie Holmes, or Joey Katie Holmes is the actress is again at an art class where they're drawing a naked person, but this time it's a woman. Is this? I took art classes outside of school. I never drew a naked person, and now we've got two in a row for Joey. But apparently Joey just be drawing naked people everywhere, everywhere. And not only that. Dawson just strolls on in and I know I just happen to be nearby so I want to see how you're doing. Oh, you're drawing a naked person again, sorry. And then the like professors like this is a closed class or session or whatever. And then I put, of course, the girl that Dawson runs into in the college library Library. That is the girl who was naked, right, rachel Lee Cook.
Speaker 1:But I loved the camera work when he sees her in the library and they're talking through the books. Yeah, I loved that. That's such a good. That happens in so many TV shows and movies. I just love it. It's just fun, because I've never talked to somebody through a book aisle. Love it, it's just a fun, because I've never talked to somebody through me a book aisle. Well, I take it back. I, when I worked at the chicago tribune, I worked in aisles. They were books but they were photo. Yeah, so like literally, that was my job, so I would talk to people through there. Well that's, but it's hard to talk to people through there because you see like half their face and then they I don't know, but I thought that the camera work there was fun, I do like that and then okay, so then, skipping ahead a little, unless you have anything else there.
Speaker 1:Pacey is now worried about Andy's medication. Well, the only thing I wrote down did you notice, when he picked up the pill thing, that it said Xanax, but it was Z-A-N-A-C? No, because they probably couldn't put the real drug name on it because Xanax is spelled X-A-N-A-X, xanax, right, not with a Z and not with a C at the end. It just made me laugh, just because I've taken it, so like I know what it and I was like, oh, that's hilarious. Do you think they had to get permission to say what it was? No, because I think I was listening the whole time. They were pronouncing it Zanuck. Yeah, really I think so. Oh, I didn't notice that. Or they were doing it in a way to where it could have been Okay, interesting, yeah, interesting. Anyway, that was just a random thing I noticed. So, when he's well, first of all, and we'll get into this, pacey being all worried about it. But then Dawson just says to him, because Pacey brings it up to Dawson, I think she might be taking Xanax or whatever it is and Dawson just says, pacey, if you're worried about it, just ask her yourself. Yeah, I actually, yeah, I agree with Dawson. Hello, yeah, yeah, you got to ask her Right Also. Ask her Right Also. It's also like it is for medical privacy. So then that's the question too which we kind of get into in the next episode Not medical privacy, but privacy Like how much do you have to share with a partner, especially like a boyfriend and girlfriend, who's not a fiance or a spouse?
Speaker 1:That I think. Here's what I think of my opinion. First of all, I don't think I'm not of the camp that you should share every single thought, emotion, et cetera, et cetera with your partner, even if you are married. If you don't want to, unless it's going, there's a way it could harm them, right? So if you're not sharing something medically with your partner, whether you're married or not, that could affect that, like that.
Speaker 1:Like, let's say, you're on herpes medication and you're not telling them Sure, they need to know. Or let's say, you have to start taking blood pressure medication and you don't tell them. They need to know that, especially if you're married because, or living together, cause if your blood pressure gets to a peak and you're not taking your medication, something happens to you. They need to know that. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, so for her and Pacey, he doesn't need to know that. Well, that was going to be my question Is this is this that? But then I don't think so. Yeah, because they are not in a.
Speaker 1:I think I think things change if you're in a partnership where you are sharing living space and you're and you're, in a way, responsible for that person, yeah, and you're helping to take care of each other. Right, correct. So even if, like, even if, let's say, we were roommates, I would probably tell you, hey, like I'm going through this medical thing or whatever, just so you know. Like, let's say, I have seizures or something, yeah, you kind of need to know that. But if, like, I'm your friend at work, even, but if I'm just like someone, you don't need to know that, you know at church or something, you don't need to tell me that necessarily. I think. I think that's probably in my, that's just my opinion. I think if, if you're in a living situation with somebody, and if you are being physically intimate with somebody, they need to know, like your sexual history that could affect them, right, sure, like I wonder, though, not your sexual history, but like things that could affect them. I wonder, though, with like the medication, though, could it affect Pacey hypothetically if she does have some sort of you know, breakdown or meltdown or something, just knowing that either maybe she's not taking her medication for some reason? No, I think it's a good idea, but I don't think she has the talent. She's not obligated.
Speaker 1:They're 16? Well, that was the other thing. Like they're not even in charge of themselves yet, right, right, so I agree. Okay, I was just curious. Like, for instance, I had to get put on birth control pills when I was very young for, like, menstrual cycle reasons. This is like aren't y'all so excited to know that about me, which is a common story for lots of teenage girls. Like you know, uteruses are dumb and they be angry, so, but I didn't tell every person I dated from the time I was 14 on that I was taking birth control pills. Unless we were sexually intimate together. Then they need to know that. I mean, yeah, that's true, they don't need to know, but they need to know that there is that precaution there. Yeah, and that does affect them. Yeah, right, that makes sense. Do you see? I don't know, I do, I do.
Speaker 1:So we both agree that Pacey didn't. She wasn't obligated to tell Pacey. No, I think it's good that she did eventually. Yeah, because just to erase some of the stigma that surrounds mental health issues. I think part of the reason she didn't want to say anything is because she was embarrassed. Yes, right, exactly. Not because she was like it's my privacy, it's none of your business. It was more like I don want to admit, yeah, something that is totally fine and good that you're taking care of yourself. And I think that was kind of his bottom line too, she, but she was very defensive too, like that's my problem, I don't need you to fix me, like I don't need your help, right, because she's very independent. Yes, but at least, at least the way the writing was, he was coming at it from a. I just want to be an extra support. Yeah, I just want to be there for you. Yeah, yeah, I agree, yeah, Anyway, so did Joey.
Speaker 1:Maybe I missed it, but when? So her character's name is Devin Rachel the cook. Does Joey recognize that she was the naked girl? Yeah, that she was the naked girl. Yeah, oh, I must. I must have literally looked away to write something down, because next thing I know they're like having a conversation it was never acknowledged, oh, shit, yeah, I don't know, because she was like in the restaurant and she was like creeped out. She's like that girl, like right, oh, does she ever say like that was the naked girl? Is? I love Michelle Williams with short hair? Me too? Oh, my God, okay, let me. So cute, so cute.
Speaker 1:Side note I watched two episodes of her new show dying for sex. Yeah, it's so good, really, okay, okay, definitely. Not one to watch in the living room. Okay, no, living room, for that it is, and I'll wait until you watch it one day, okay, but it's about a. I can tell you this bit of it she is diagnosed with cancer for the second time and this time it's terminal.
Speaker 1:You find out instantly in episodes and she decides she and you, you know this also very quickly. She leaves her husband and she wants to. She's like I just want to die with my best friend. I want you to take care of me and like help me live my life, because her husband's too. Anyway, there's lots going on there. She's like I have had a shitty sex life and I want to go have some fun. I'm about to die and she's like I want my best friend to help, not give her the exciting sex life, not give her the exciting sex, but to support her in the journey. It's so good, it's funny, but it's sad. I think it's kind of like a sadder sex in the city, but it's so real and her hair is super short. Again, I love it and it's so cute and she's such a good actress and it's based on a true story.
Speaker 1:They this. I need to look it up, but I don't want to yet because I don't want to know what happens, right, but she made a podcast. Her and her friend made a podcast Like the real life. Yeah, she made a podcast. Her and her friend made a podcast like the real life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, we definitely have to, I know, but I was like, oh, my god, like the things that she normalizes in the first two episodes for women and sexuality. Just, I was just like, yeah, and I don't want to tell anymore now. Okay, let's talk about another time. Check that out. Anyway, I love her hair. So I know, love, love her hair. Sure, love it, love it, love it, love it. Yeah, and so kind of going back to the restaurant then when Devin, who was the naked girl, is studying Joey, because now Dawson has cast her in the movie as Sammy who is the Joey character, yeah, but it's Devin playing it, and that's a whole thing. I know Because she reads the script and then she gives Dawson criticism on it which he doesn't like.
Speaker 1:He's like never mind, you're not the right person. But also like, yeah, that was kind of bullshit of her. Yeah, like, if you're an actor, you don't give your director advice, right, yeah, I agree, you do not do that. You don't. Your job is to act a job or you don't. Whether you agree with what they say or you think your way's right, it does not matter. You do what the director says, that's right. That's why Katie and I are dream actors to work with.
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean it's true, though, because I do both, right, not on the same projects, but like I will produce or direct something, and that's different than when I music direct. Yeah, because even as a music director, I'm doing what the director wants me to do and the singers need to do what I'm asking them to do. But, like when we did Christmas Story, that was the first show I'd done in a while where it was none of those things. I wasn't directing, I wasn't producing, I wasn't music directing, I wasn't in charge of any children, I was literally just Katie the performer there.
Speaker 1:And it's a totally different hat you have to wear and you have to get in that mentality that like to wear and you have to get in that mentality that, like this is not my show, right, I am one piece of someone else's vision and you either say yes or no to that and then, once you choose, that's it. Yep, well, this Devin I mean she, she had a little chip on her shoulder. You know every 20 something college student. Yeah, I know everything. Yeah, well, and I mean she did have a good piece of advice for him, though she was like, if you're going to shut down every time someone has feedback for you or criticism, then you're not going to last long. I mean, that's true, but also, again, it's his project from actors, right, right, very good point.
Speaker 1:Oh, wait, before we move on, I have to say, because we're getting past the scene yeah, pacey's outfit was so terrible where he had on that blue velvet shirt and those ginormous jeans. I loved it. You did. Do you think those are? What are they? Jnco jeans? I was trying to. I don't think so. They weren't that big but they were big but they were ginormous. Yeah, I was like ginormous jeans and that shirt was so bad. It was bad. Hello, I don't know what was happening. I couldn't stop looking at the shirt. I was like that's ugly. I do not remember anybody wearing that. I don't think I do either. Okay, I don't think I do, sorry.
Speaker 1:Also, speaking of Dawson's movie, where does he get all the fucking equipment? I know, did you write that? I? Later on I said, oh, did I skip ahead? No, no, no, no, but I mean I, it was noticed the whole time. I just wrote it later. Um, oh, yeah, I said all the peeps on set, dawson, on a rolling camera, stand jack as the grip, like with the bike and all the lights. Do you think the money that he got for the film? There's no way that's enough money for all that. Yeah, well, maybe the film class at school doesn't have that at a film class at school. Yeah, even the camera. Well, I think the camera's his at some small public school in capeside mass, they do it. This one girl, I know yeah, that is so dumb.
Speaker 1:I actually wrote movie set recipe for disaster, meaning all the different personalities there, like you just knew this was not gonna, I know, I know, with like you've got the fake person playing Joey, but then Joey's there, so she's watching all the scenes play out that are really her and Dawson, but also her new boyfriend, jack, is there, I know, but then, like Jen's also in the mix of everything and I was like this is a nightmare, right, like why Dawson thought all that would be great, plus Chris, plus Chris yes, bless his heart who actually was like kind of non-problematic in this episode. My favorite, though I wrote this down was when Dawson gave him direction and he was like Chris, not everybody is as cool as you. Because he was like I just don't understand. Like why don't you just whatever? Yeah, why are you being angsty? And he was like not everybody is cool as you. He's like well, I just can't relate. No, that's why you're an actor, chris. But that wasn't. That was funny, it made me laugh. Um, did you hear the really naked lady song? Yeah, I wrote that down. It's all been done. Yeah, I love that song. I forgot I love that song till I heard it.
Speaker 1:Oh, and then Andy freaking out about the barrette because she's the prop master. But you know what that made. When you have anxiety and you're struggling, you do get mad about the stupidest things. Yeah, Like I mean, I know, when I'm not in a good place, that's. The first thing I notice is that I'm like on edge all the time and it might be something like a barrette, something that does not matter, like doesn't matter, and that's usually what it is. It's usually dumb shit. Yeah, like that doesn't matter because you hyper fixate. Yes, that makes sense, and it's all about, like, usually anxiety triggers are about control and right.
Speaker 1:So, right after that scene where andy's freaking out yes, they can't find a barrette, she's a prop master, so she needs to know where all the props are at all times um, her, and then kind of get into it and and pacey actually says I wrote this down don't make me the bad guy. Yeah, like, because she's getting defensive and she's getting pushing him away on purpose and he can see that and he's saying, well, like I didn't do anything wrong, don't make me bad, so that, like in your mind you can justify pushing me out of your life or out of your way or whatever. Um, I loved this and I felt this so much, so much. This relates back to what we talked about at the top of this episode, when andy says I just keep adding, not subtracting, from my life, yeah, and how all just compounds. And that's the truth with your schedule. That's the truth with your schedule. That's the truth with emotions and relationships, things like resentment, like whatever it is, they all. Generally, we don't take the time to weed out things, we just add to it, add more, yeah, and I really felt that, and I can see that in my kids oh, yeah, their schedules and the stuff they've got going on, and that they're learning all the time management and that you don't have time for everything. And you know, I, you know, I think about that when it's like January and like it's new years. I always think about, like I don't want to add something. Like people are like, oh, I'm going to do this more and I'm going to add this. Maybe take away something in the new year, right, like, instead of adding more shit that you have, I gotta drink more water, I gotta eat more vegetables. Okay, well, what can you just take out? Yes, I love that. Yeah, instead of I've got to do like you said, more and more. Yeah, now do I do that? No, but it's a great idea. Yes, maybe we'll try it this year. Fucking idea 2026. Oh, I did.
Speaker 1:I laughed so hard when joey and devon, like, had their little interaction in the hallway and she was all pissed. And when she walked away, she's like she's too short to play me. I love that. I love that too. That was so funny. Like a little throwaway. That was funny, okay.
Speaker 1:So then, when Joey gets upset with Dawson, I wrote down the line because, like the scenes some of them are basically verbatim, like conversations they had and she says is isn't anything sacred with you? And she calls the movie self-indulgent. I actually felt bad for him when she was yelling at him. Really, what do you think? I don't know, I just felt bad for him. I mean, I get it. I get what she's saying and it is a little self-indulgent, but isn't that what I mean? Isn't that what we do as artists, though? Like, sometimes your biggest form of inspiration is your life. I mean, you're writing two books right now Based on my life, right, yeah, not based like, well, but I mean that are real life related to your life? Yeah, in some way, right, and there are obviously creatives who write about not their life, but everything's grounded in something right, like a character might have characteristics of a real person you know or a real experience you had. Um, I agree, and he says. He basically says that, yeah, he says this is how I've processed this really big thing that happened to me in this big relationship we've had. I mean, think about, like every pop artist and country artist out there writing about their exes yeah, all my exes live in Texas.
Speaker 1:For example, I was listening to an interview with Chapel Roan today. She's on Bo and Yang's podcast. It was really good, and she was talking about, like her ex, that she wrote one of her songs about. She's like, yeah, so I get pissed every time. Right, I still get mad that. So I get pissed every time. Right, I still get mad. That's how you get through it, right, right, anyway, so I did. I felt bad for him. Mark it down. Okay, that's another time. She's on Dawson's side this time. Again, this has happened a couple times, a couple times, uh.
Speaker 1:So then, once they're sort of wrapping for the day, there's the scene where grams and jen interact. I just thought that that was so well written I did too. So sweet. It was where grams basically is like I watched you today and you're amazing and you're good at this and you're a strong, independent woman, and like you go, girl. Basically once she said what a wonderful time to be a woman. You can do anything you want. Yeah, I love that patriarchy still coming for you. But I mean, yes, whether that statement's true or not, but the fact that she said it and meant it. Well, for grants to say that, yeah, it's a big deal, is a big deal. Yeah, and I like that. I like what they did, that jen accepted the compliments too. Instead of just being like well, no, it's nothing, or blah, blah, blah, she was like thank you, yeah, that means like a lot to me. Yeah, and I was like this is lovely, I like this interaction.
Speaker 1:I like the growth they have of Grams in this whole show Mm-hmm, because she does bounds grows a lot from when you first meet her in the first season. That's such a great point and I had not thought about that because of course, we assume teenagers are going to have a growth trajectory and character development, but we don't necessarily think of like the older person. Well, and I always say, if you're still breathing, there's still time to change. That's a great example. I mean, really, you can evolve at any point in time. It's like I think sometimes people think once you get to a certain age, you're just stuck believing what you believe and thoughts, and some people do. I'm not saying that that doesn't happen, right, but it's never too late and I've seen it. I've seen people in real life change their minds at all ages, all ages.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think it would have been easy for the writers to just keep her as that trope, oh for sure. And the fact that she does evolve is is great. Yeah, I really like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, when pacey's basically like to dawson oh, andy's pushing me away, she doesn't want me, and dawson's basically just like, well, yeah, let, yeah, let her go. And then Pacey says that it almost fuels him more. He's like, no, I'm not going to do that, I have no intention of letting her go. And then he kind of and that's when you know, up the ladder to her window and the flower and the whole thing. I love the climbing the window. It's cute.
Speaker 1:Listen, my teenage self was like somebody needs to climb my fucking window Although I lived in a one story house so it would have been weird but just knock on your window at eye level. I just love that. That's like a whole Romeo Juliet thing and I'm not a huge romantic person but I do like big gestures and like let's go Like I thought he was. I forgot for a second. I thought he was going to have a whole Lloyd Dobler scene where he was with the boom box and say anything. I had the same thought because her window was open and it's so cliche now. But like before, what really happened happened in my head. I'm like, would it have been cliche now or would it have been like a nod to that? I don't for the first time. I think that is always a good thing. I just love that.
Speaker 1:Everybody needs a Lloyd Dobler moment. I'll come to your house and play you a song, cause our husbands will not do that. So like, maybe not the song, but when Brant and I were dating, oh, did he do this? He did no, he did the love actually thing with the cards. Stop it, I still have them somewhere, yeah, oh, and we weren't like fighting, but it was like a time in our relationship. It was like a crossroads. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, because, like he was, he had just gotten divorced and I had a baby and I was moving and all the things. So he made like this whole thing. I have it in my closet because he did it like a sketchbook, so it's like all together and it was awesome. It was awesome. I love that.
Speaker 1:The only thing like Troy's not a big like gesture person like that. But I do remember the first time he had to deploy Caden was six weeks old. It was really rough. Okay, he left me post-it notes hidden in places. I still have one.
Speaker 1:Aw, like there was one in my dresser that said kiss Katie for me. Aw, I know Katie's crying. There was one and I just left them there because this sounds so morbid. But when you have somebody who's deploying to a war zone, you have to think this could be the last thing I have with their handwriting. And I don't even remember what the other one said. The one I still have is in our old dresser, which is now in our guest room, and it's says kiss game. Oh, I know. So anyway, sweet, our husbands don't have big gestures all the time, but they've done them, but they've done them, um, so I did like that part with pacey. I'm sorry I made you cry. Oh my god, I love notes though.
Speaker 1:Like you're a words person, so am I. I know I am, but then for something not so great. I know the party that ty takes jen. I saw it coming. I figured it was either because I know I saw this episode years ago. Yeah, it was either like an AA meeting, because they hand her a Coke as soon as she walks in, or like a Bible study. And here's the thing, guys you should never bring someone to a Bible study or an AA meeting without telling them where you're going. Correct, that's shitty. That's shitty. Yeah, and I've been that person to try and like get people like back in my in my evangelical days, um, but that's, that's shady and people uncomfortable if they're not in the right frame of mind. Well, and that's not like. Also, how embarrassing.
Speaker 1:Like these, all these people know what they're talking about and like that puts you on the spot as, like this new person Right, like nah, not here for that. I was like squirming just watching her and she was like, ah, when she has the realization, because what do you do? You can't get up. I mean, you could well, you and you would be fully within your rights, but she wasn't going to. And how'd she get there? Maybe he drove her like, right, she probably was stuck or felt stuck. Yeah, and you don't want to be rude, even though you should be, even though you could be, because that's rude to drop you there. Yes, anyway, that's all I have for this one. Um, I just had two more where um, at the very end, when pacey and andy are like making up um, pacey calls it the andy mcphee fan club and he says adulation never wavers love. I loved that.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, if you had a katie parsons fan club, who would be in it? Oh, um, you, of course. Uh, my daughter, tegan brant, probably. Yeah, I think brant would be in it. Probably. The only reason I don't think he would is not because he's not my fan, but because he would be like I don't want to join a club, right, any club, I think. I think troy would be in the same same. Uh, I don know. Would there be people in mine besides you? Of course? I can think of like 10 people off the top of my head, or my cat, my cat and you. Well, of course, all my dogs would be in mine, of course, even the mean one, because she's not mean to me, right? She'd be mean to all the other fan club members, I think just my littlest would probably be it. It's not that they don't like me, I just think that they'd be like you're fine, you're made to be vocal about it. My kids would say you're mad, you're fine, you're mad, you're okay, you're fine, you're not bad, you're not good, you're me. Yeah, right in the middle, but anyway, well, that was a fun. Oh wait, we got to keep.
Speaker 1:So now episode 14. And the reason we're saying big is because we're going to have big feelings. Yeah, about all the things. Oh, it's 1218 too. I've got to leave, I've got to go soon 1240. So we're going to make this fast. Let's do this. Oh wait, hold on. Let me make sure I have an AC repair person coming. Yeah, double check. Let me make sure they haven't told me they're going to be early, because I hate that. Yes, so this next part we will be talking about some homophobia. Okay, yeah, definitely, trigger warning. Just be ready for that. Yeah, this episode was called to be or not to be. Here's a summary.
Speaker 1:After a harsh teacher forces Jack to read a poem that leads everyone to suspect he's gay. Pacey's principal defense threatens to get him suspended, right? So we've got a lot and we're not going to waste any time. Let's not. I'm not even going to talk about that because it doesn't matter. Yeah, let's just get into it. So, jack, so everyone writes a poem for class, everyone that's in the class, and Jack and the teachers. The teacher is a dick, and I wrote that too, that to Pacey too.
Speaker 1:I actually had several teachers like this. Okay, have you ever had a teacher like that? I don't remember, but it did seem to be like in my mind. As I was watching, I was like, yeah, this is how a lot of teachers behaved, especially then, and probably some. I had several. I mean, I had one math teacher who, um, was he my sister's seven years older than me, but he was a teacher of my sisters as well. He didn't like her. So he somehow figured out a lot of times teachers wouldn't connect that we are related.
Speaker 1:Number one, cause we're so far apart in age. Number two we look completely different, so like, but he knew and instantly he hated me. Also, he was my homeroom teacher for three fucking years. And my math teacher, that's terrible. And I'm a good student but I struggle with math. I've always struggled with math and I have to work really hard. And he was so fucking mean. I hate it. He would call me out, he would embarrass me.
Speaker 1:I remember one time I was like trying to lose weight and I came to home room and I was talking to a girl about it and I was like, yeah, I tried to like go running this morning and he is like, oh, you've lost a lot of weight. And he's like, you still got some more to go, literally. Then he was my fucking um drivers. Uh, sorry, I, everything's fine. I keep checking my phone. Nope, he wasn't my driver, that was another one. He was a football coach too. It's just like all those standard.
Speaker 1:I had another teacher in eighth grade who was so misogynistic he thought all girls were stupid. He used to write us hall passes, like if we said something that was wrong he would write us a hall pass to planet earth. Swear to God, oh, my God, yeah, whoa, yeah, I had some. And then I had another teacher who I just drove him crazy because I talked a lot. He would kick me out of class. He'd be like out hold now, and I'd just stand in the hall, the whole class literally, and like the teachers, like that would be instantly fired.
Speaker 1:Nowadays you cannot thank god, yeah, because trauma, like I still remember all of this yeah, he was horrible, anyway. So, anyway, I'm saying like that that isn't just Hollywood being Hollywood. I think that was actually modeled off examples of correct Right. So so, not only was the teacher being kind of a hard ass about the assignment which was to write a poem I don't know if there were any other specifications he basically tells Pacey he's going to give him a D on it because it's in cursive, right, so he's got to rewrite. So you're already established that this guy is, like, not an outside the box thinker or even just a normal thinker, yeah, then he makes Jack stand up and read his poem, which Jack clearly doesn't want to do.
Speaker 1:This is something, though, that I never understood. I knew this was coming because I I re-watched this not too long ago, excuse me, and I remember this from the, from when it originally came out, why it was a great poem, it was a beautiful poem. Why the fuck did jack write that for school? Yeah, yeah, like, why wouldn't you like Pacey's, was like owed to the sports car, right, yeah, if you are feeling these emotions and feelings and you, I mean, we all know I used to write poetry, you did too, and but I would never have put some of my poetry at school Do we think he did that on?
Speaker 1:Do we think there was a part of him that wanted it out there, I mean? Or he just really never imagined he would ever have to read it out loud, but he knew the teacher would see it. The teacher, who is an asshole? Yeah, he knew that he would see it, maybe, yeah, or was that just bad writing Like it for the script? For the script? Probably bad writing that we're supposed to believe that? Maybe he just thought it would live on paper, it would get a grade and that would be it. Cause, not with a teacher like that, the teacher, like I mean, I did have some wonderful teachers who I probably would have written something and turned it in, knowing they would read it and grade it and be fine and give you encouragement on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't think about that, honestly, when he first started reading it. I just thought he was talking about his brother, right, which you're supposed to right. So if I was jack, wouldn't I just say that's what it was about. He did. But then later, when he's talking about it to joey, he's like, I don't know, like I had these weird dreams and I woke up. The imagery, the imagery was masculine. He's like maybe it was my brother, maybe it wasn't. Yeah, yeah, but I just yeah. But the poem was really good. I thought that was a good poem, but I also, speaking of bad script writing, I feel like I remember thinking this back in when this originally came out, the way they developed this.
Speaker 1:It's almost like after the last episode they decided, hey, let's make a character gay, oh, it'll be jack. Like I feel like there's nothing leading up to this, absolutely nothing. And then there's like, not that there has to be, of course, but I feel like it was like this decision they made because they wanted to have a gay character. I didn't think about that, but yeah, it's, it's. There's no arc leading, no at all. No, and it's just here. We, here, we are at this point and yeah, there's nothing, and not that, not that it can't, because this I mean mean not everybody's story and their sexuality journey is cut and dry.
Speaker 1:Nobody's is really, if you think about it, and it can change at any age, at any genre, like depending on your circumstances and society that you're in and people you're around, like I mean, how many people do we know like in in recent years who've told us that friends of ours or family or ourselves or whoever that's like oh, I didn't even know that I was a lesbian until whatever, or I didn't even know that I liked. Well, that was one thing in general I noticed about this episode and I know it's a sign of the times and maybe they were trying to be progressive, but it was so binary, right, that's what I thought too. It's so binary. It was like, oh well, jack, you got to tell us if you're gay or not, and I'm like Jack doesn't fucking know. And I said, what if he's bi or pan, or what if he? Yeah, what if he's just fluid and he doesn't know person?
Speaker 1:And I think that's what bothered me the most. Of course, there was some homophobia in there too, some very direct things. But more than anything, I just thought this is so, so binary, so binary and like not even. I mean, I'm sure some people still discuss things in that way, but like that's not really the conversation we would have now. No, well, not especially in media. Like we have so much more language, which I think is so helpful for humans out there, like that you have. Like, our kids don't have to feel trapped right, like it felt like they were trying to get him to declare this thing yes, permanent thing about himself forever at 16. Everyone's trying to get him to right and it's either one. It's either one or one, that's it. Yeah, and I think that's what drove me the most crazy. Yeah, I'm with you. That was that everyone, like just cared way too much about it.
Speaker 1:But again, I mean, this was the late 90s, yeah, and that was the conversation around sexuality. It was so binary, like, so that if you are this, then you can never be this other thing Correct, which we know is not what we know is ridiculous. Yeah, and I mean we talk on here all the time about how we both think sexuality is a gray area for most humans and it I honestly it should be. I mean I don't think you should have to declare anything at any time. Right, just be, just be, like, just be. And who cares? I don't care if you've been with men for 80, a hundred years and well, nobody's that old, so that would just be odd. But let's, let's say you're 80 and you've only been with men and then you know your spouse dies and you're like well, actually, I think I like all humans and I'm going to go be with a woman now. Go for it, right. Or maybe you're like maybe I just want to see, do whatever you need to do. I feel like most people are that way. It's society that's fucked.
Speaker 1:Everybody all up, totally agree, and it's evident in this show, right, in these types of things that were quote, unquote, maybe progressive, like you said, like they're like oh, oh, we're gonna have a gay character. Yes, we're so progressive, but then, like the, the language around it was so one of the most um was when andy and pacey are talking about it later and pacey's like well, how would you feel if jack told you he was gay? And she said I'd be disappointed, I know. And then at the end of that conversation he does. But then Pacey says well, for his sake, I hope you're right, I know Meaning that he's not gay, which it is a harder path. So I guess maybe that could be what he meant. I don't want him to go through all this.
Speaker 1:I think what he meant was oh well, since you have that opinion for his sake, I hope you're right Because you're going, because you'll be disappointed, you're gonna be an asshole to him about it. Oh yeah, maybe that's what I think he meant, because he was such a strong ally this show. But also I even had a problem with that because it was like the straight white man savior. I know I was gonna say the same thing. I think I wrote that down later. Like why does like? On one hand, you like to say the same thing? I think I wrote that down later. Like why does like? On one hand, you like to see the popular sis, whatever guy, but he's standing up for this, for whatever Jack wants to be.
Speaker 1:But like, then it becomes we're kind of praising Pacey, right, instead of praising Jack's journey or supporting him or whatever he needs. It becomes about what a good hero I am, what a good person I am willing to get suspended over this, when really it's not about you. And it doesn't cost him, right, not in the same way. I mean, it costs him. What a suspension, a grade, but not his whole. Like people aren't spray painting shit, you know.
Speaker 1:Derogatory slurs on his locker. There was a slur sprayed on the locker in this one, like you're not scared for your safety, you're not Right. You're not Right. It doesn't cost you as much to speak up and stand up, which, on one hand, is why you should be a strong ally for the voices who are marginalized and oppressed that are not yours. You need to be a shield. Yes, so, because you can. Unfortunately, society sucks and like you know what I'm saying that person, but also like, yeah, oh, this is random and bit of trivia.
Speaker 1:Did you notice in the background at the restaurant, there was a rainbow wind sock. I saw that, that. Do you think that was on purpose? I thought the same thing, because this is the first episode where we're talking about a potentially gay character and there's this like bright rainbow piece of decor which, at that time, would have been pretty rare to have at a restaurant. Right, and I think, yeah, I noticed it too. Yeah, and I had the same thought. I wonder so, probably so. And yeah, I noticed it too. Yeah, and I had the same thought. I wonder, so, probably so.
Speaker 1:And I think, kind of, just salute back to this pacey thing one more time, like, on the other hand, showing an example at the time this was written of someone who could be confident in their own relationship or sexuality and still support whatever someone else wanted to do, particularly a man, was good, because in theory, you want other people to be like, oh well, I should speak up too, or maybe I should be a better ally, or whatever. I don't know that we use that language then, but that sort of thing. So, but yeah, but I also had a problem with it, a little bit Like I know, now we're just now, we're just being like, oh, you're such a good person for being accepted, accepting. It's like, oh no. It's like, well, now we're just now, we're just being like, oh, you're such a good person for being accepting. It's like, oh no, that's like the baseline. Yeah, that's how everyone should be Right, exactly, that's the baseline.
Speaker 1:And then, okay, that fucking teacher. They go back to the class and he makes him read it fucking again. Yeah, even after all this bullshit. Yeah, and Pacey spit in his face. I loved that. Okay, we don't condone physical assaults, no, but if anybody deserved to have their face spit in, it was that fucking teacher. Oh yeah, that was escalating between him and pacey. It was like I'm telling you, and that fucking teacher would have been fired like nowadays would be fired. I mean, all somebody has to do is record the bullshit he's saying. I mean it's been done. It's yeah, it's been done and yeah, you'd be out of there because I mean he's bullying students. Yeah, it's verbal abuse and bullying and that's what he's doing.
Speaker 1:One thing that I like, I think I liked I'd be interested to hear what you say when later andy and jack are discussing everything in their kitchen, andy kind of admits that the reason she is so not against him necessarily being gay, but like upset about the situation is selfish, and she says yeah, and she says I have so much shit going on. Basically, this is another thing I have to worry about. And then I gotta worry about you. And then I got and I actually appreciated that, yeah, I get it like okay, well, we're revisiting, like our own feelings and that it's not him, right, it's you. It's needing to grapple with what's happening to you. Well, and she's, I think she's saying too like it's one more thing people are going to talk about, like oh, they have a crazy mom and they have have an Andy's gum pills, and like one more thing which is shitty, but it's not, she's not creating that, that's just the way it. But also reminded me we haven't yeah, because the word they put on the locker is the word fag Okay, which I hate, and I'm like man, we've come a long way, because that would not be tolerated now. But then I was like, wait a second.
Speaker 1:Just this fall I'm at one of Caden's football games and there was a guy on the flag team I don't remember if it was his school or the other school and I heard kids yelling that at him Right, 2025, guys, yeah, and we're still yeah. So, like I was. First, I was like man, we've come a a long way. And then, all of a sudden, that memory popped in my brain yeah, and then, like a young performer we know, I won't say their name was a cheerleader at a school, a local school here, and he said every time they'd go to an away game, he would hear that yelled at him wow, that's just, you're right.
Speaker 1:And how much time has gone by, right, and it makes me sad because most of the time, if you are in teenage land and you think it's okay to yell those words, that means that your parents also are okay with that. You know what I mean, yeah, like you start to develop your own stuff, but like that's pretty extreme, right, so you yell hateful words at a person. Yeah, I don't know it. Just that's one of those things where, too, I wonder if social media in so many ways has made it better, like you mentioned. Like a lot of this language we have and and sort of bigger conversations about things do happen there, but then things like that I wonder like do you, are there little algorithms? You're in that you're seeing it, maybe outside your home, true, or it's reinforcing what you already see at home, or whatever it may be. So in that way, it's bad, I know. And also, we're living in a time where we are moving backwards and rights. Yeah, right now we are. We are moving Like it's nauseating every day, it is exhausting and I yeah, we won't go too much on that, no, but all of those things come up when you watch this because it was made in 1999. Yeah, and here we are and you can't, we can't look at it and go, oh, wow, remember when things were like that. They're so much better.
Speaker 1:We did say the conversation around stuff has improved, so that's great, but the using of these words and the marginalizing people. It's still as bad, getting worse. I don't know, you know as it was, and that's the part that's really really frustrating. It really is, um, okay, so I have a few more things, kind of um, when joey asked him, then finally, toward the end, are you gay? And then here's the thing that's so loaded. Did I say that or did someone else say that?
Speaker 1:I don't know, but she just but that's, that's kind of what we already talked about, where I know it's like I don't think he has an answer to that. I don't know that he's lying. It's not that he's trying to deceive you. It's like I don't think he has an answer to that. It's not that he's lying, it's not that he's trying to deceive you. It's just like, well, what does that mean? Like, what are you actually asking me? Well, and again, it's like we're talking about like, forcing someone to put a label on something that is really difficult to label Totally, especially when you're 16. Especially, yeah, totally, especially when you're 16. Especially, yeah.
Speaker 1:My sister and I talk about this all the time, about how annoying it is that people force you to have a label at all. Right, because, yeah, and when you're 16, nothing makes sense, no, nothing does, nothing makes sense and I think sometimes we just pick something and just say, yep, this is it. Oh, hold on, let me check, make it easier. Or whatever he's on the way, oh, hold on, let me try to make it easier. Whatever he's on the way, great, okay. Well, we got to finish this up.
Speaker 1:Well, the last thing I had on that was I said that when Jack kissed Joey at the end it felt like he was trying to prove he isn't gay. And then she says do me a favor, poems. He goes, okay, but then Hootie and the Blowfish played at the end it did. That was good, I did. Only one thing I was going to say was that I that was a positive. I love it when Pacey was talking to Dawson and Dawson in the principal's office and Dawson said in my lifetime, pacey, I will never be ashamed of you. That was just. I love that they show these two cis heterosexual males having emotional talks on this show yep, and that they admit to being close, right, and he's like I will never be ashamed of you. I just, yeah, it's like that simple, but it's like so powerful at the same time. I know someone's saying that to you when maybe you're feeling a little.
Speaker 1:And what they did a good job of us setting up at the beginning of the episode was how well Pacey's doing on these kind of arbitrary things like getting good grades, staying out of trouble, whatever. But those were things he really wasn't excelling in before. So you see all that because that heightens then what's at stake. If it was just regular Pacey not passing his classes, always in trouble, and you're gonna be disrespectful to a teacher, but he actually had things to lose yes, and so I thought that was set up pretty well. Yeah, because right away you're cheering for him.
Speaker 1:Like you said, people can change at any point. He could just keep being the same Pacey, or he could be like I'm still Pacey, but I'm going to try to get ace now. Well, you go Pacey, you know. Like why not? Why can't Pacey still be witty and funny and get ace, you know? But anyway, so if you do, if you haven't watched episode 14 yet and you're going to just watch with care, it's a lot, everybody, and the next few, this whole rest of the season. This is what I was like. I was waiting for this part of the season to come on. So just know, a lot coming up A lot and there's not the way they handle. A lot of the things is like Okay, yeah, all right, all right. Well, thanks Till next time, everyone, bye, bye.
