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Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast
Xennial co-hosts Dani and Katie talk about their analog childhoods, digital adulthoods and everything in between. If you love 1980's and 1990's pop culture content, this is the podcast for you!
Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast
The Face on the Milk Carton: A Xennial Re-Read
Did your amateur detective skills take shape around your breakfast table?
Did a love of milk make you extra afraid of strangers as a kid?
If you analyzed the young adult fiction book The Face on the Milk Carton as a school assignment, you might be a Xennial. And we are too.
Join Dani & Katie as they discuss the concept of "faces" on milk cartons in the 1980s, and how the book series based on that concept fares today.
This episode was made possible by:
The Face on the Milk Carton (young adult book and audiobook)
The Face on the Milk Carton TV movie on YouTube
The Face on the Milk Carton via Wikipedia
History of faces on milk cartons, via MissingKids.org
Missing kids and milk cartons, via Wikipedia
The disappearance of Etan Patz, via Crime and Coffee Couple podcast
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Email us at generationinbetweenpodcast@gmail.com
Request an episode topic here
Did your obsession with true crime start around your breakfast table as a kid, pouring milk on your Cheerios? If you demanded that your parents show you your birth certificate after reading the popular young adult novel the Face on the Milk Carton, you might be a Zennial reader and we are too. Hi everyone, I'm Katie and I'm Dani, and you are listening to Generation Inbetween, a Xennial podcast where we revisit, remember, reread today and sometimes relearn all kinds of things from being an 80s kid and a 90s teen. And today, for some reason unbeknownst to me yet, we are discussing the 1990 book and the concept that inspired the Face on the Milk Carton by Caroline B Cooney. Yes, that is right. So, listeners, this was a Katie idea. If it's true crime, you know it's Katie and we'll get it. We'll get into the why. I mean, it's not very exciting, but we'll get into the why. So Dani's here for the ride Always, but she did. I will say she did do a little bit of research on her end. So we'll get into the why. So Dani's here for the ride Always, but she did. I will say she did do a little bit of research on her end. So we'll get to that.
Speaker 1:But before we do that I just quickly wanted to thank you listeners for all that you do. February 2025 was our highest download month to date, hey, so thank you so much. And our downloads we use a platform called Buzzsprout. Hey, buzzsprout. Yes, and those don't even count our YouTube views, of which there are not that many, but I'm like it's that number plus a few more. How is it possible we're not viral on YouTube? I don't know. I mean, maybe after today, because if you're watching us on YouTube right now, you can see our outfits. Oh yeah, maybe after today, because if you're watching us on YouTube right now, you can see our outfits. Oh yeah, we're wearing our matching JCPenney one suits, because it was time and we got to do some reels and we need some theme wear. We really do Theme wear, it is, and so I just wanted to say thank you and if you have not left us a review yet, please leave us one. Wherever you listen. Just five stars, absolutely free. Take you 30 seconds, maybe a minute. This really helps other people find us. We've had a few people say that now that, oh, really, algorithms gave it to them someone, um, what? No, her name's escaping me, I'll find before. The next one was like I just found you guys and I I love it and I'm listening to everything and it's not like a friend of a friend or oh yeah, she found us, I believe, in spotify suggested. Yeah, so that's what your reviews do. They bring us new listeners. So we really really appreciate that. And, of course, if you can't get enough of our regular episodes, you can become a patron over on Patreon or an Apple subscriber, and both of those, I should say an Apple paid subscriber both of those will give you all of our bonus content and access to some fun stuff.
Speaker 1:I am boring, dani, I don't know how, in this outfit. I'm sorry, somehow. No, I haven't had my coffee yet and I'm not sleeping good. I had a nightmare last night that I was pregnant. Guys, I'm 44, going on 45 this year. That is a nightmare. Anyways, I'm sorry. I apologize, katie, that's okay.
Speaker 1:And then I had a coffee emergency because I had such a long day yesterday Not bad, but I went on a field trip with 98 fourth, fifth and sixth graders Lord have mercy To an assisted living place. So there was just a lot happening. And then we went to the mall food court and then we came back and then I taught lessons for like five hours in a row. So I get home and I'm getting ready for the morning because I was like I'm just gonna put on my pjs and yeah, chill, like dish, like well, dishes were done, like everything else can wait, like I can fold towels tomorrow. I need to, I need a break. And I was getting my coffee set up. You know the Hamilton Beach coffee maker that I can program. I'm like cool, I'm going to hit the little buttons and then I'll have coffee in the morning. Yay, remembered.
Speaker 1:In that instant I was completely out of coffee. Like usually I have, like I don't know, like a gift bag or Christmas flavor or something, not a bean anywhere, and I had already poured a little bit of wine because of the day and I was like I do not want to go back, you're done, You're checked out. Like once you get home, like I feel that I can't go back out, I cannot do anything else. That takes executive function today, once the shoes and the bra come off, it's over, it was over. I was in PJs, I was in sweatpants, it was done, and so I was going to just ask my neighbor. And then I remembered my daughter was at Danny's house that very second. So I was like, ooh, I bet Danny could like spare a couple scoops of coffee. And instead she sent me this like bag, not huge, but like a really fancy coffee.
Speaker 1:I feel bad because it was part of this pack that Troy got for Christmas. I don't know if he was saving it, but now it's gone. Oh no, it's been there. I mean it's fine, it's not a big deal, okay. Well, I owe Troy some coffee, but it was delicious, but anyway, it's good, it's good, okay.
Speaker 1:So the point of today's episode there really isn't one. I can't wait to hear why it popped in your brain. So you know, when we talk about different things on the show, different things spark memories and little spinoff ideas and I have no idea why, but I was just randomly like, hey, remember in my head I think I was walking my dogs. I was like remember when there were faces on milk cartons? That was a thought that came into your brain. It came to my head. I was probably listening to a true crime podcast while walking and I do have a few in here that stories I know that do have to do with the real life and I was like kids today would not even like understand what that is. And whenever I have that thought I'm like, oh, we probably need to talk about it on the podcast. And then I remembered there was actually a book, a young adult fiction book, yeah, and I was like, oh my gosh, I wonder if Danny ever read that. And then I remembered there was a made for TV movie that went with that, and so that's kind of how we got where we are.
Speaker 1:So Danny, to her credit, did get the audio version of that book. I did. I will just say right up front the book had. Actually there are five books. I read one and I do not plan to read the other four. Don't worry, I have summaries of them. Great, it gets to be a lot, let me tell you, but you did read it. So I, first of all, we have the official summary of that first book for Danny to read, and then I want to hear how your audio listening experience went. Okay, right, oh, before we get going on that, I've I forgot to send you something and I will.
Speaker 1:But we have a new listener named Anthony and he listened to our legend episode and sent me the coolest little YouTube clip. It's about 20 minutes and it it talks about. It's this guy and this girl who I think also have podcasts or YouTube channels or I don't know. They are talking about the differences in the European cut of the movie Okay, the American cut and the director's cut of legend Awesome. It was very interesting because the European guy was like yeah, that's what I grew up watching.
Speaker 1:The European version, the, the female. She's american and she's like well, I grew up watching the american version. There's different endings. So in the european ending jack and lily don't end up together. Oh my gosh, lily's like I don't belong here, I'm leaving, and so jack runs off by himself. So it's like I mean, it wasn't a sad thing, it was like a thank you, I love you, whatever, but I'm peace out. What a great adventure.
Speaker 1:But the music is also very different. The original score is on the european like it's not. We didn't even talk about the music really in our episode a little bit, but not, yeah, because the american version has tangerine dream, but that was a redo from the original score, which was jerry goldsmith, who's a very popular movie composer, so if I say that name, he did like Star Trek, he did Alien, he did. I'm trying to remember some of the big ones, but anyways, so that's just one. Those are just a couple of things, but it's interesting. I'll send it to you. Yeah, thanks for sending us that.
Speaker 1:And, listeners, send us those kinds of things, cause we will miss stuff all the time. Oh yeah, and even if we've already talked about it, it's a great way to follow up. Because I was talking to him I was like, yeah, we get in these rabbit holes of research and we have to pick and choose what we talk about and then we forget sometimes. But then, like, we miss some, like I would have. I'm like, like man, I wish I would have came across that YouTube video, like anyway, yeah, oh well, thank you, anthony, and thanks and welcome to the podcast. Welcome. And if you are completely new and didn't listen to our legend episode, it is in our feeds. Make sure you listen. That was really fun. We had our friend Jamila here and it was a lot of shenanigans, shenanigans, but it was a good time. And her daughter, her daughter too, and her daughter was here too, one of them. That was a fun day. It was a good day. That was a fun day. That was a good day. All right, all right.
Speaker 1:So Summary the official summary of the young adult novel. The Face on the Milk Carton novel, written by author Caroline B Cooney, first published in 1990, is the first in a five book series. Janie Johnson is the main character, later adapted into a film for TV because, hello, early 90s, late 80s, that's what you did. The book is about a 15 year old girl named Janie Johnson who starts to suspect her parents may have kidnapped her, and her biological parents are somewhere in New Jersey. These suspicions come after Janie recognizes a picture of herself on a milk carton under the heading missing child. Janie's life gets more stressful as she tries to find the truth while hiding the secret from her parents. Yeah, so there you go, that's, that's it.
Speaker 1:Okay, full stop, honesty, yes, for I was thinking this was a fictional book based on a real true crime case. Okay, when I started reading it and then when it got like super ridiculous, which we'll get into, I was like, okay, this cannot be real. And then I was like so I Google. I had to stop and be like cause I didn't read the summary. Oh, sorry, I didn't read the summary or anything. Katie's like we're gonna do this. And I looked up the audio book and it's a. It's a young adult book, so it's short, so it's like four or five hours and I listened to everything on super speed, so I knocked it out in like a few days, but I totally thought it was a real story. And then it just got ridiculous and I'm like there's no way and I'm like, oh correct, that's fiction. It is fiction.
Speaker 1:There is at least one reported case of an actual kid recognizing themselves on a milk carton and it leading to them being reconnected with their family. However, it was a custodial parent situation, not a stranger abduction, which is what the book is about. Kind of sort of, sort of yeah, but they're not family members that take her right and um, the I have it later in my notes, but her name is bonnie something, and she, she had been kidnapped by her father and stepmother and they couldn't find her and then she saw herself on a milk carton. That led to eventually being reunited with her mom. You know, yeah, I can't wait to hear your research about this. Oh, yeah, because I like, do you want me, do you want me to tell you what I thought of the book now? Yeah, tell us. Are you wanting to do research? No, it's okay, tell us. Yeah, tell us or you want to do research? No, it's okay, tell us.
Speaker 1:Well, number one I love young adult books. I am not an adult who scoffs at reading young adult books, because I think a lot of them are really good. This is not one, and I feel like it just didn't hold up against the time, like it just didn't and it was just like okay. First of all, I haven't read any other writing by this author, but it was bad. And guys, I am not even like a writing expert, like Katie, I don't have any background education on that but the writing was bad. It was not good, it did not flow, it like stuff would just happen. And you were like what? Like yeah, excuse me, that doesn't go. Like I don't know, it was weird. And then like I felt like she just threw in like making out and stuff, with a boy in the midst of this girl going through this crisis of am I abducted and are these psychos with my parents, and she's like, oh, let me go hook up in a truck, right, quick, hello, right.
Speaker 1:And he actually sticks around for all five books. There's a book that's almost completely about him, the Boyfriend Reeve Reeve. Okay, but I do like that name. I do too, but I it was not a good book. I just I was so glad when it was done. I was like the narrator was okay, but again, this was from 1990. Right, I think too.
Speaker 1:I mean, in young adult books I feel the same way. There's some great ones out there. Obviously we've got classics, older classics like Judy oh yeah, like Judy Blume and people like that, beverly Cleary Done but I think the quality level of adult books, young adult books, now is just so high too. Oh, that's true, but no, because Judy Blume was a long time ago, but I think she might have been an exception, both of them, I don't know that like the general reading of young adults and that I did not research, but like, well, you don't need to, it's fine, but yeah, but no, I mean, I think that that's totally fair and it's a bummer because on concept, it's a really good concept, like you're a teenager, like the storyline, yeah, the storyline's great. Yeah, I mean it'd be a good mystery.
Speaker 1:I think it was light on the like detective mystery part and heavy on like the emotional whatever, and then, like the cult stuff is kind of weird. Listen, for those of you who have not read this book. Now, did you read this as a kid? Yes, I'm pretty sure I did, because it seems like everybody probably did. There were some books everybody just kind of read. Yeah, I think so too, because as soon as you said it I was like, oh yeah. But then I asked a couple people about it and they had no idea what I was talking about. Okay, weird. It's weird that we both had sort of a collective memory of it and I thought it was real. Yeah, I knew it wasn't, but I knew that it was probably based on some things. So let's get into the research, let's get into it, let's hear about that.
Speaker 1:So first of all, especially if you're a young person, you're probably asking two questions why is there a face on a milk carton? And what is a milk carton? Granted, they have them still at schools. Do they still have them? Yes, remember when we had Not the face but the cartons. Remember when we had the plastic pouches that looked like breast implants, oh my God. And you would just rip the thing off and, no, you'd poke it in and it would always shoot out the top. Do you remember that? Yes, juice too, they do. They have juice. I think my school only had milk. Oh well, excuse me, I went to public school in Louisiana.
Speaker 1:Ok, so milk or nothing, I don't know what's happening, but remember those? Yeah, totally look like breast implants. Oh my God Right, it is. Yeah, totally look like breast implants. Oh my god right, yes, I do breast implant milk. Look it up 1990s. Look it up. Um, okay, if you're young you have no idea. No, you wouldn't. I mean, I don't, I haven't. Like when I've been at school with my kids I haven't seen those, so I wouldn't imagine. Probably not, because the plastic, good lord alone. Yeah, you can't recycle breast implant milk. No, nor breast implant, nor drink it effectively. Or breast implants yeah, either thing.
Speaker 1:Hey, so a very quick history of milk cartons. Okay, wow, we're going in hot today with some cool. I don't know why I went way back, but I did. But I'm actually ready to hear this, because they started off in glass things, correct. So in the early 1900s in America, it was very common in other countries to have reusable glass bottles that you would set out and the milkman would come and you'd get new milk every day, or however often they were washed and reused. Do you know? I used to. I love that, else I shouldn't even say this. When I was little and like you know, not that we had glass bottles, but like you know you see movies with the but I thought the milkman would bring a cow what what to your bottles and fill them up and then just keep on walking with his cow. I don't know. That's where my brain went. Guys, um, moving, moving on. I love that. I love that. Okay, so, but by 1915, a guy named John Van Wormer, an American inventor hey, john Van Wormer, van Wormer, wormer or Wormer, worm, like an animal, yeah, okay, okay, maybe not someone, you went messing with your milk, but whatever you go, john, he patented the first paper milk carton called a Pure Pack, and it was folded but it was wax coated and it was easier to manufacture and dispose of, obviously, than glass bottles.
Speaker 1:And by the 1950s those were basically used everywhere, okay, schools, grocery stores, whatever. Then those got like an upgrade in the 1960s to something called a Tetra Pak and this was like just almost like a thicker, sturdier version of the carton, tetra Pak. I remember seeing that on the carton. I remember that too, like as soon as you said it. Yeah, I think Tetra Pak is still on things like half and half. Oh, if you get it in a carton, yeah, maybe that's it. Yeah, I think Tetra Pak is still on things like half and half. Oh, if you get it in a carton, yeah, maybe that's it. I think they still use Tetra Pak for those. So you can find that modernly Interesting.
Speaker 1:It's not very common for like milk, okay. And so after they did all of that, it was in the 90s where plastic kind of took over, and these are these polyethylene plastic jugs that we have today, partly because people had larger quantities of milk that they could store now because of better refrigeration and just bigger consumption of everything, and so those made them easier to handle. They were resealable in a way that, like I don't know if you remember the cartons you have to like unfold it, like you peel it back, at least to pour it out yeah, not describing this well, but it's like sealed and then you have to like fold it open and pull the middle out, yeah, and then like you could store it like that, but like oxygen and it would get like soggy on the inside of it, yeah, so with plastic jugs, you know you don't really have to do that, just burn up the earth, but that's just burn up the earth, exactly, um. So I looked. You know you don't really have to do that, just burn up the earth. But that's fine, just burn up the earth, exactly. So I looked up. You know our milk carton's gone completely, and we kind of already touched on this.
Speaker 1:Not entirely, schools do use them for single serving milk and then the some organic and specialty milk brands do use the paper cartons or the cardboard. I'd say the milk we buy still isn't a cardboardy thing. Okay, yeah, that's good. So it's still out there. It's just not as common. It used to be like the main way to get it and you just can't really find them now, although you know what they do. Now that's annoying. They have the cardboard milk cartons but then they have a plastic fricking, right, that's so dumb, like even half and half will have that or something. Yeah, exactly. So it's not all, but that's probably to avoid that seal thing that they were talking about. But I understand, yeah, you wouldn't mind if it was all paper, right, that'd be fine. But they're still wax coated, so it's still kind of not the easiest to biodegrade. Yeah, but it's still better than plastic. Yeah, degrade, but it's still better than plastic. Yeah, um, and there are actually plant-based curtains out there now too. Oh, but you can get. I don't know which brands do that.
Speaker 1:But did you just have so much fun researching milk? I was like I was like this is all this. All is kind of obvious, but I'm still gonna put it in my notes, because what if it's not? But I never think about it, you don't think about it. That's one of those things now y'all know. The more you know, right, the more you know that's us rainbow. It was a star. It was a star with a rainbow tail. Oh, you're right, correct, okay, we got it. Start with the rainbow, okay, so, um, all right, so then, okay, now here we are with milk cartons. Why are there faces on milk cartons? What does that even mean?
Speaker 1:Okay, so the origins of this and this was probably what sprung this in my mind from the true crime I've listened to, really it dates back to the late 70s, 1979, the disappearance of Etan Potts. He was a six-year-old in New York City. The story is that he wanted to walk himself to the bus stop for the first time ever. You're six, it's the 70s, it's busy, new york city, and his parents let him. Never saw him again. Every parent's nightmare, oh my god.
Speaker 1:And his case was one of the first missing child cases to receive national attention. Because of the timing of it and the newspapers and like an average everyday person, right, obviously like the Lindbergh baby, and all of that was big, but so he was not actually on a milk carton, but because it was, people were sort of like outraged, like why don't we have better systems of like finding him? They kind of led to some of the reforms in the early eighties, which include the milk carton, putting children's pictures on there and declaring them missing. So he, decades later, they determined I mean decades they didn't know what happened to this young man. He had been abducted and murdered. The same day that he went missing and it wasn't until 2017, a man named Pedro Hernandez was convicted of the murder. He was a construction worker or something in the area and they were able to connect it. How did they even find him?
Speaker 1:I feel like they found the body a while ago, like in the early 2000s, in a home, tested the remains in a home. Oh, like in, like a wall or something, what? Yeah, see, how do you listen to this all the time? I cannot. Well, I will say what I find interesting is, like you would think a crime that happened in 79, by 2000 or 2015, like you don't have leads, like it's cold forever, but but because of DNA and all this new technology that wasn't around then a lot of people are finally getting convicted for things, even posthumously, like people who have passed away, but their fingerprints or DNA are in the system for some reason, are getting connected to cold crimes.
Speaker 1:I't know like it makes my stomach hurt just to think about I don't know how y'all listen all you true crime junkies out there, because a lot of our listeners are a true crime. I think so. Yeah, I, I am so disturbed, I cannot, I don't, it is, it is. It is very bothersome. Yeah, I don't know how that's entertaining, I don't know.
Speaker 1:You guys, I think I've told you before I I usually will skip over ones about kids. Yeah, I do remember listening to this one a long time ago, like it wasn't recently, and then, when I was doing the research, it came up again. I was like, oh, yeah, I remember listening to that one, but the ones with kids, yeah, oof, the first milk carton faces came around around 1984 and it wasn't national, it was regional. Okay, so it was? Was it Idaho? Let me, I don't want to say Idaho if it was Iowa, iowa, see, glad I checked my notes In Iowa Fact check, exactly, real quick fact checking myself. Okay, so it started with the national child safety council and the anderson erickson dairy in iowa. So they were a big um milk manufacturer and, and I'm gonna say, bottled it but into cartons, yeah, at their facility, um, and they were the first to put photos of missing children on milk cartons and these were local.
Speaker 1:And it was inspired because there was a case, another child, johnny gosh, a 12 year old paper boy from des moines, iowa, who vanished on his route. He was with his docs and gretchen who came home. He never completed the route. This is one that has never been solved. Oh, he is presumed to have been kidnapped. They've never found him. That's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1:Yep, there's a lot of weirdness around this one too, and this part this is like a spinoff heartbreak of this type of stuff, especially as decades go by and you kind of hear about the parents. Like his mom, she claims he came to her house in 1997 and like basically told her he's fine, but he needs to stay off the radar because of the people who held him captive because he was an adult by then, but he wanted her to know he was okay, but that he had to like kind of disappear and change his name and stuff. But like she's the only one who saw him and like there's been some question as to if that really happened and stuff like that. He would have been 27 at the time, um, and then, yeah, so she's not. Or, if it did happen, but it was a hoax.
Speaker 1:It's weird when you hear these cases people I don't know what's wrong with people, first of all, like abducting children, there's that. But like people who didn't have anything to do with the crime, like sending fake letters or phone calls pretending to be the kidnapper or saying they saw the person alive, like it happens a lot, really it happens a lot, and so parents have to like deal with that and police, you know, go down-end leads and it's just a whole thing. I I don't understand. Let's see, this is why I can't do true crime guys, because I I'm just like what the fuck is wrong with everybody? Yeah, seriously, like I just it gives me zero faith in the human race and it's already pretty low right now, right, so like yeah, stuff like that it's like oof, I don't know so.
Speaker 1:So they're looking for this kid. Still to this day, I've never found him. Maybe that was him who came to his mom's house and he's out there thriving somewhere. But then, two years after that, a different paper boy in the same area in 84, eugene martin. He was 13. He disappeared. He's never been heard from, nor his body found. Um, his parents have passed away, but his brother this was in august 2023, so not that long ago had told a des moines news station that he still thinks he's alive out there and that he hopes to like see his brother in his lifetime. So these kind of back to back and they lived near each other like they, their routes were in the same neighborhood, yikes. So that was kind of.
Speaker 1:Obviously the people in that region of iowa were very much on high alert, which is kind of what then spilled into this whole regional dairy wanting to do something and put these faces out there. And once they started, the program quickly spread across the country with other major dairy companies wanting to participate in their own area, and the logic was this right, nearly every household had milk cartons Got it. So if you put the face of a missing child on there and their name and their age and you know basic information about who they are and when they were last seen. It's a very simple way to get it into a bunch of households and spread awareness. You know they still have those like missing kid, like boards at like Walmart and the post office. I think the post office, yeah, like they still have those, they do, yeah, and it always cause it always makes my stomach turn again when I see it and see how many Right Like, and I think it's a way to. I think part of the thought process was like those boards you're talking about Walmart or wherever you, you can avoid those if you want. You really can avoid, like your milk that's sitting there in your fridge, like you can maybe not read it if you didn't want to, but it's in your home on your table or in your fridge. So you'll probably get to this. But did it actually do anything? I will get to that, okay, I'll put a pin in me for now. Well, actually so. So the campaign was supported by law enforcement and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, which was actually founded in 84 as well. So that was not even an organization which, if you're a true crime listener, you've probably heard that organization a zillion times. They step in to help with missing children in the FBI and it's a huge organization. They've had a good success rate of finding children, but they were formed in 84, right around when this milk carton thing was getting started. However, the overall success rate was very low for these.
Speaker 1:I told you about the one case, bonnie Lohman. She was reunited with her family because of recognizing herself on a milk carton. Um, she was out shopping with her stepfather and she saw a milk carton with her face on it. She kept the carton, which is similar to the book yeah, yeah, um, and showed it to a neighbor who was like yeah, I see it, like, I see it in your face. And they alerted authorities and she was eventually rescued and reunited. So I said it backward earlier, she was reunited with her biological father, so it was her stepdad that took her and her mom and her mom, okay, so it wasn't strangers. It was like a family kidnapping, correct, which is the case. It's oh, yeah, yeah, that's the case with most child abductions. It's usually either a custodial parent situation or a grandparent situation, and by usually I mean like almost all the time, or at least someone they knew, which is still illegal and scary as hell.
Speaker 1:An actual stranger like plucking you off the street or a parking lot or whatever, or these newspaper boys like is very, very low. Which is crazy. Because you remember being taught in school stranger danger, right, right, when really it should be like, and nobody educated us back in those days about, and even with child abuse or like sexual assault, it was always stranger danger. Nobody taught us. I mean, I remember the videos. I remember watching the videos because I came home I was a very anxious child still an anxious adult and I remember coming home being so upset because I was terrified of the video, because it's all about stranger danger. Nobody educated us on the fact well, maybe they didn't have the statistics then, they probably didn't To know that most of the people who harm you are those in your circle already, which is even more scary. It's terrifying and that's the education right that we need to give our kids now and that is a little more out there and being talked about the rhetoric that you have to watch for stuff with people you know and sometimes it's hard to turn like to be like hey, this coach or this teacher or this relative or even a parent or a step parent like it. It's hard to do that, but that's most of the time.
Speaker 1:If there's harm to children, whether it's kidnapping or abuse or sexual abuse, is people they know almost all the time. So why did the milk carton campaign end, right? So this started in mid eighties, but really by the early 1990s they weren't really doing it anymore, so it was a very small amount of time, which is funny, cause it's like ingrained in my brain, um, and it was because of things I've already mentioned. It did raise awareness, but not many recoveries, um, and most of the cases were like long-term missing children. So it made it even less effective because the photos they had, even age progression, isn't always what the person looks like, and also that kidnappings by strangers were rare, and so a lot of times when the kids were abducted it wasn't like in public where someone would have seen something right. So because it was with people and then also because they were seeing it so much, the public became desensitized to it, like I said, just kind of not reading it or not reacting.
Speaker 1:It's like I get Amber Alerts. Exactly, that's so funny. Look what's next in my notes. Oh shit, amber Alert. Yeah, you just said that. But yeah, I mean, we get them and we're like, oh, what's going on? We're like, oh, it's an Amber Alert, and then it's like it's like mute. But then, you know, like every time my phone goes off, like that, I'm like like I don't, I'm like what do I? Even? I don't know what do I do, what do I even do? Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's a great point.
Speaker 1:I they're only issued in very special circumstances, and what I mean by that is when they absolutely know it was an abduction and when they know who they're probably with and have more description, like a car or something clothing or car like. And some people get frustrated because, for example, there was a missing person in our area recently, a teen, and they did not issue an Amber alert, which is weird because no, there was no one to look for. And so people get upset about that. Why is there not an Amber Alert? And she was recovered, everybody. She was recovered and she's okay, and she had left, as far as we know, of her own volition and people were looking for her, which is great.
Speaker 1:I think you have to, even if it ends up being like a runaway situation, you have to treat it. Unless you know that for sure, you have to treat it. Yeah, unless you know that for sure, you have to treat it as something else, until you know. But you know people get a little up in arms about that stuff With that situation. I saw it everywhere and it's because the Amber Alert is has to have specific criteria to even work, kind of like you said, like if you just got something, that's like a girl, we don't know where she went missing or who she's with, and she might be on foot, she might not. You just be like okay, and thankfully we have things like social media sharing her photo and this is where she was last seen, etc.
Speaker 1:So the amber alert system was introduced in 1996 and it became a faster and more effective way to notify the public about children. So obviously we get the text now and the alerts, but it it was TV radio, then later on internet, social media where they could spread the information quickly. So this was, and Amber Alerts are also regional. So like someone in California is not getting an Amber Alert for Tampa, florida, but we are right Because it's meant to recover children quickly. Why is it called Amber Alert? It does. I don't have it in here, but it is based on a child, a little girl named Amber.
Speaker 1:I've listened to her case before, so maybe I'll follow up. Not with the whole episode, don't worry. I'm like no, no, no, or maybe before the bonus I'll look it up real quick. But essentially she was taken by a stranger in a store, I believe, and there was no system in place like so they tell the store people but they don't shut, they don't lock down the store fast enough. So then they tell the police and the police don't get the roads shut down fast enough. And so it was kind of like the kidnapper was like one step ahead the whole time, uh, and I believe she was. She was killed, like kidnapped and killed, and so the parents then were like okay, okay, we got to change some things. And that's when Amber Alert kind of became a law, basically like how can we alert people way faster? Yeah, because maybe someone would have seen her or a roadblock would have stopped them or the mall could have been shut down.
Speaker 1:There's a different name, I think it's called an Adam Alert, which we've talked about when we were talking about Adam Walsh. That's specific to retail stores and public places and it's not a law, but it's a system you can adopt as a business. If, let's say, you're at Macy's Macy's is an Adam Alert place and there's a missing kid, they have procedures to shut down the store or whatever they're going to do. It's not just like, oh my God, what do we do? I don't know. Let's stand here and watch everybody with kids. It's like a systematic way to try to find kids quickly. So there's different levels of it Amber and Adam. So another reason they stopped doing the milk cartons is parents, mostly parents.
Speaker 1:Some child psychiatrists said that it was very anxiety producing for the kids to see this all the time on the milk cartons which I get. So like every time you go to pour your milk, this kid's missing. This kid's missing. They were abducted at this place and this is what happens, you know. So it it made children. This is funny because this kind of sounds like what you were just saying. It it made children. This is funny because this kind of sounds like what you were just saying.
Speaker 1:It made some children fear they could be kidnapped at any moment. Oh my god, same which. Yes, it's better to be overly cautious, but also, like you, don't want to live fear. That's what I did. I was totally paranoid, like I even went through like a phase where I would like, uh, ocd habits, where I would like have to double check the door was locked like 10 times, where I went to sleep and even if my mom would say, danny, I locked the door right, I would have to go that many times Cause I mean panic, like you're terrified. I do that now I wouldn't say every night or 10 times, but especially cause sometimes my son comes home after I'm in bed. Last, because sometimes my son comes home after I'm in bed. Last night my daughter came home after I was in bed and usually my husband's up later. But I, like I will text my kids, bolt the door when you come in, yeah, and I'll like say to my husband are all the windows? Because he's like I think so. I'm like are they closed or not? Yeah, you know, like you better shut up and like it's just you know, but you're an adult and you got people to tend for. Those are responsibilities. But like when you're nine, it's a little different. Yeah, girl Jen's out there, like diagnosing me again. I know it's happening. She is, it's fine, I already know my diagnosis. She diagnosed herself Jen. It's fine, don't? Um, she'll be okay. So it's called a.
Speaker 1:Was that from the milk cartons that you had, that, or was that a combination of? I think it was a lot of stuff. I mean it's just. I feel like narrative around it. I feel like the eighties were like, just you know it, they just scared us to death as kids. It was kidnappings, it was unsolved mysteries. Seriously, it was stranger danger films. Stop, drop and roll.
Speaker 1:Did you not think you were going to catch on fire, like at least once in your life? At least once? I mean, there's still time. Plus, I lived in a place that had, you know, severe weather, like a hurricane, right, and my dad was obsessed with weather because he was an oceanographer, so he was fascinated by it. Meanwhile, I was terrified Right was an oceanographer, so he was fascinated by it. Meanwhile, I was terrified, right, because he, he had the scientific ability and the maturity to process it differently than and logic and logic, you know, you know, as a child obviously would not have even, or as an adult, even today, even now anyway. But yeah, I mean, I get it, I see like that's so.
Speaker 1:So were kind of like if we're not finding kids really and everyone's all freaked out by it, like why should we continue this process? And then also, when, like, technology was improving not the way that it is now as far as social media and even texting and all of that but it was going the way where you were able to reach people other ways, were able to reach people other ways. Yeah. So anyway, the even though we mentioned the faces on the milk cartons really didn't bring back like a high return rate of children. It did bring national attention to missing children's issues and it did directly lead to the creation of databases for missing persons, including that National Center for Exploited and Missing Children, for missing persons, including that National Center for Exploited and Missing Children.
Speaker 1:So before that, everything was very fragmented. You've got, like this police station that's looking for someone and then a state away someone's looking for something similar, and that has to do with the technology improving too. But now you've got a national database that can cross-reference potential leads, like hey, this girl seems like maybe she doesn't belong with this family. Well, let's see, do we have a missing person? Oh, they're three states away, but this sounds like a match. So that was partially due to this additional attention on missing children which the milk cartons had to do with, but they're no longer on milk cartons, so that's kind of the history of that.
Speaker 1:That then led to the book. So let me tell you. Then. You've read the summary, so let me tell you what inspired the book. Did you see that, other than milk cartons, did I see that, like, did you read it anywhere when you Googled, or I did not Google? Well, you said you had Googled to see if it was a true story. Oh, true. So I just wondered if you saw anything. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. So Caroline Cooney, who wrote the book, her inspiration came at LaGuardia Airport where she saw missing children, flyers, one of a toddler, and they were throughout the concourse and it really like stuck with her and like on that flight she was imagining what it might be like if a toddler who was kidnapped recognized herself later on a poster, uh-huh. So that's it. That's how she was inspired to write this story. Okay, um, it has it did despite you know, your, your.
Speaker 1:It has won several awards. Stop it. Yes, the Colorado Blue Spruce Book Award in 96. The 96? 96. Pacific Northwest Library Association Young Readers Choice Award what, yes? And the Iowa Teen Book Award. I cannot, well, whatever, what does my opinion matter? I'll tell you why some people really like this book. So the series itself. So the series, all five books, has sold 4.2 million copies. Get out of here A lot, girl, a lot. So, authors John Bushman and Shelley McNerney I read an article that they wrote and they specialize in analyzing young adult literature.
Speaker 1:They say that the book the Face on the Milk Carton, along with the corresponding novels that go with it, are text instructors can use to guide the development of young adults' moral reasoning, adult's moral reasoning. This is because the novel contains themes like self-identity, relationships with parents and peers, individual responsibility and challenging established dynamics, and the novel's protagonist faces all of those in the context of her life. What do you think about that? Having freshly read, listened to this, one of the things that got on my damn nerves while I was reading the book was the dynamic she had with her parents quote-unquote parents, her, the one she'd been with, yeah, life like non-real that she identified as her.
Speaker 1:I only read the first book, so I don't know what happened. Oh, that's true, that's true, right, right. So they were just like overly affectionate, overly together all the time. I mean, it was like so much, it was like it was so much and she was a lot. She was like 16, calling them daddy and mommy and like, oh, daddy, I did a big kid and they, like it was so almost like 1950s era made up family dynamics. I feel that do you know what I mean? And maybe the TV movie wasn't the same, but in the book that's how it was, so that was just toned down a little, but they were very like, yeah, I was like, I'm sorry, like they're teenagers, no, I don't care what house you grow up in, right, well, there was a line and you can tell me if you remember hearing this in the book on the re-listen Okay, in the TV movie which I did watch on YouTube, which we'll get to, her friend says something about that Like how her parents are just so like up and in everything and she's like, well, you know how older parents are, they're just like more attached or whatever.
Speaker 1:That's what Janie, the main character, said of her parents. She mentions them being older, but she doesn't say anything about it until she is questioning if they're her parents. She's like, oh, they are older, but so like no, that wasn't really a thing, but it was just crazy, I don't know, I just I did not like that. It was annoying it to me. I was like that was, that was so like I don't think you could use that in a classroom and be like this is real, like I mean, especially now, yeah, no, yeah, like I feel that, but also like moral reasoning where's what moral reasoning would she grapple with? The only moral reasoning she had was whether or not to have sex with that boy. It was true, and I still don't know if they did it or not, because not, like that matters, I don't care.
Speaker 1:Stupid book not telling me the answer to that. But I was like I don't know. I mean, granted, it's a young adult book written in the early 90s, so there wasn't as much talk about it directly. But it would be like they were making out and then the chapter ends and I'm like okay, well, what happened? Like did they do it or not? Because then they talk about like, right, it was just not, guys, it was just not written. Well, I don't know. Well, you wouldn't teach it in a class, all right.
Speaker 1:Well, what do you think about? Um, I mean, I think it's like I said, the concept is interesting to me and that, if that really was you the idea of, like, what would I do if my whole world that I've always accepted was questioned, and would I be willing to mess it all up, especially a very comfortable life, in pursuit of the truth? Okay, so let's stop there and answer that. What would you do? I think I would pursue truth, but I can think of examples, even just in like my family history, without getting too into the weeds of things that I'm like I really should look into that, but maybe I don't want to. You know, yeah, I totally would want to know, I would want to know, but maybe that's just because of the family dynamic I had.
Speaker 1:But I always think too, like, if your reality, whatever your reality is, it's your reality, whether it's something that was created or not, yes, so I think if you're happy with that reality and she was, yes, I could see why she wouldn't want to question it. Now, if she was in an unhappy situation, there was like abuse happening or just a weird dynamic that would probably push you to cause, cause, like for me, I, when I was reading the, reading the book, I was like, why the hell wouldn't she want to know? Why would you not want to know? That was like oh well, that's probably why because she's happy like she she doesn't want to mess up her situation, right? And so then I guess what is the moral that they're saying is good? Are they saying it's good then that, despite everyone's world being shattered, she pursued the truth? It's not her fault? But I'm just saying, like, I think truth should always, always be revealed. Okay, because that's just. I mean, I'm not going to like go into the depths there, but real facts and real truth should always be revealed, even if there's discomfort, even if it disrupts your whole world. It's more important, I think, to know reality than your perceived reality, and I think it always like so cliche, but it always comes out anyway. Yeah, you can avoid, like she could have packaged that away, but it would comes out anyway. Yeah, you can avoid, like she could have packaged that away, but it would always follow her around and somehow, eventually, she would need to like figure it out.
Speaker 1:So for those that haven't read the book and we did read the summary, just a real quick. She thinks she sees her face on the milk carton. She takes it at school, she takes a milk carton like home with her and then she kind of goes through her parents things when they're not home In an attic or something In the attic and finds like this other name, this name, hannah, and so you're kind of like led to believe, like oh my gosh, was that her? Yeah, and they're hiding all this stuff. But then when she confronts her parents, they and they are older they say that that was their daughter who kind of got taken away by a cult or involved in a cult and showed up on their doorstep one day with janie, the book's protagonist, when she was little and said she didn't feel safe with her at the cult, whatever, and left her there with them and that's why they didn't have her birth certificate. That's why they didn't like know. So they don't, according to the book, if we're to believe the book, the parent she was living with did not know that she had been kidnapped Right by their daughter, right, which was real confusing in the book.
Speaker 1:Really, it was a little more clear in the. It was real confusing because, of course, when they said that, I was like, oh, they're lying I. Confusing because I, of course, when they said that I was like, oh, they're lying, I know, I said they're lying. I thought the same thing. I'm like, oh, that's their whole story. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And conveniently they haven't seen this daughter since Cause. Then, cause, yeah, it was just not, it was very murky, I don't know it was. It was murky, and then it was, and then I cause, then I was like, wait a minute, so she's in a cult, but that's still her. I was thinking that it was still her kid, cause.
Speaker 1:Then in the book it's revealed later that she, they kidnapped her from another family, correct, which was really. It was not laid out well, so at least at least in the movie, the way it was was that Janie was kidnapped from a department store yes, that was the thing by Hannah, the woman in the cult Right. And then the woman in the call took her to her parents and basically told this story about it or whatever. And they and they took her thinking cause they hadn't seen her, cause she'd been living this like lifestyle that they weren't part of. So they thought, well, maybe she did have a baby and the baby's a toddler now and um, but what I found very unbelievable both and I know this was a different time, both in the book and the movie, was like they didn't see on the news that, like, a kid had been kidnapped, like they didn't notice they moved, but like in the immediate, like you wouldn't move the next day, would you? Yeah, lots of plot holes, I don't know, but anyway, so that was the story.
Speaker 1:And so in the book, so in the first book, it ends with Janie deciding to call her quote, unquote biological family because she's found them, and this is with her parents support or whatever. Well, reeve, the boy next door who she has this affair with, uh, his sister is a lawyer, that's right, yeah, that's right. And they confront and she finds the, she finds them, yeah, so that's how the first book ends, okay. So then I was like, okay, whatever, I don't care what happens next. I didn't care what happens next. I didn't Like you know some books like aren't that good, but you're like, well, I still want to know, like I can think of several books that I'm like sure I want to know anyway. So I'm going to read the next, this one. I was like I don't care, like I'm moving on, I don't care.
Speaker 1:So, the made-for-TV, so the timelines are different, but essentially, yes, reeve and the sister kind of talk her into pursuing it. So first she drives over to their house and she's the address. They find yeah, and she sees yeah. So then she actually confronts her parents about it and says like I want and I want to contact them and her mom, the quote-unquote mom, dials it for her. Oh yeah, it's the missing person number. And into the phone janie says hi, I, I saw this face on the carton, I think it's me.
Speaker 1:So then you kind of fast forward to then her family. Obviously, her mom and her dad, biological have been looking for her all this time. They can't believe it's her, yada, yada, yada. So she ends up they show like a very quick, like mediation in a courtroom and they decide that Janie will go live with her biological family for three months with no contact of her other family, and they must live relatively close to each other because they can drive back and forth. Well, she drove, I remember her and her and that boy drove. They drove by or whatever, yeah, but it took them hours. So it was like the next day they drove to New Jersey and they live in not New Jersey, got it. So maybe in the miniseries or in the TV movies they made it a little different. No, because they drove like all day. Oh, okay, yeah, I mean I guess they fast forwarded through that in the movie. It doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1:So she reluctantly goes to live with them and now she's sharing a room with her little sister, and then the older brother has a lot of resentment towards her. So there's like so the family dynamic of the bio family is the parents are still married. She had an older brother and it's revealed that he was supposed to be holding her hand in the store, so he's been feeling guilt all these years. And then there's a little sister who was like a baby baby at the time. There's twins in the book. And then in the book there's twins, yeah, but in the movie they weren't there, it was just the three kids Got it, and so you know. So, as you can imagine, her whole world is like turned upside down and her parents are like so thankful she's there, but like she doesn't know them, yeah, and so there's tension. And then there's like moments where they bond and then eventually she's like misses her old, old life so much she tries to run away. And so then everybody comes together to try to find her, both the regular parent, the parent she's been living with and the bio parents. And then they all bond over that. And then by the end of the made for TV movie, which I did read, is what happens at the end of the second book. She does go back to live with the other parents, but it's like amicable, like she's still gonna go spend time with her new bio family.
Speaker 1:Three more books after that, all right. So I didn't put it all in here because it's a lot, but essentially there's that. So so hannah, the one who kidnapped her, comes back. Oh yeah, I guess they probably had. So they're still looking for her. And then they get word that she died. Oh, actually, in the second book they're told she died, but then by the third book she's back. And then there's a whole book where they go to college and like Reeve is questioning his own life, and then Reeve and her like biological brother. It's like a whole bunch of soap opera stuff that doesn't really have to do with the original premise at all, except for hannah, except for hannah. And then in the fifth book hannah is finally arrested. Seems like we could have done that all in one book. You know, it seems like we could have. So that.
Speaker 1:So the tv movie had do you remember, if I say this name, the actress Kelly Martin? Kelly Martin yeah, she was in that show with the first Down Syndrome actor that was on TV. Life Goes On, life Goes On. Yep, that's her. Oh blah dee, oh blah da. Life Goes On, I don't know the rest. Life Goes On. I think that know the rest. Life goes on. I think that's it. Yeah, there we go In a couple of years, I don't know. Good, anyway, all right.
Speaker 1:Yes, her, she was Janie in the Made for TV movie. I probably watched it back in the day and as soon as I saw her face I was like, oh my God, she was in everything she really was. She was on that show. She was on the Hogan's yeah, the Hogan's. She was Daphne on the animated series of A Pup Named Scooby-Doo. So she was the voice. Then she was Troop Beverly Hills. She was a role on that, alongside Shelley Long. She was one of the kids. Okay, alright, I've never seen that. We're going to do a rewatch. And this is crazy, america's funniest home videos.
Speaker 1:The pilot episode went live in 89. She co-hosted it with bob saget. Yeah, hilarious, which, like in 89, like she would have been still pretty young. So I don't know why they thought that was a good idea, because bob saget would have been older. Anyway, she didn't stick around for that. So that's all I have on her. The other people in the movie random, like the mom she looked familiar. I think I've seen her like she was quote unquote old in that movie, but like I've seen her in hallmark movies and stuff, she's one of those.
Speaker 1:Um, I found it relatively enjoyable, mostly for the medium of it too, just remembering the way that tv movies and after school specials and all that used to sort of go be made. But I'll tell you what I really like kelly martin okay, her acting was really good. Okay, I really liked her. Um, so anyway, that's really kind of all I have on it. Like, I just really wanted to see like why milk cartons and how. But then of course I learned about two abduction cases that I didn't know about in the process and that made me sad, and I'm glad that we have this discussion about the young adult book too. Well, does it scratch your itch for milk carton questions? I think so. I'm not sure how many more rabbit holes I could potentially go down about milk cartons, if they exist. We'll have to have a part two. I swear I you know it's funny because I was like I don't even know, like I'm coming here today. I was like I don't even know how this discussion is going to go. Yeah, and I mean it's sort of just like but that's just how we do sometimes, guys, it's like let's just talk about it, let's just do it. We don't really have a solution.
Speaker 1:It was a thing that happened. If you were too young to remember that, that happened. Now you know. Yeah, and if you're our age and you remember, and maybe you read this book, yeah, watch the tv movie. I want to know how many of y'all have read this book back back when it came out, right, right, like in the 90, and teachers, would you teach this book in class? Maybe I did read it in middle school in class. Yeah, it was like number 79 on like a banned books list for a while, because I just remember I wrote that down. Yeah, because of, like, the sexual relationship.
Speaker 1:And then the cults. The talk of the cults some people thought was inappropriate. Let's just pretend none of that exists in the world. Yeah, right, it's fine. And as someone who knows a little bit about cults, that's another episode they definitely oversimplify. It was almost like she had issues, she was in a cult and we've never seen her again. Right like, that's not that simple. There's a lot more nuance than that. That's the story for another day, though, y'all anyway.
Speaker 1:Um well, thank you for listening. That's a way to end the episode, damn well, cliffhanger. Just yeah, we have nothing planned. We got trivia, though. We got trivia. Oh yeah, where are we at hold on, everything got moved. Oh, it's over there. We do have trivia. We have our if. If you haven't listened in a bit or you're new, at the very end we always do an 80s trivia question and a 90s trivia question. I've got 80s today. We forgot to do it with jamila, so, yeah, well, that episode was so long we were, I know we were so hot. Satan got us talking All right In a way. Yes, okay, oh no, I don't want that one. Hold on, I'm looking. Okay, oh, I've got a good one, I've got a real good one. Oh boy, okay, you can go first. You ready? Yeah, okay, call on a payphone.
Speaker 1:In 1982, a quarter no 82 was only a dime, really. I always remember this quarter. It says 10 cents, hence the expression it's your dime. Is that an expression? I have no idea. Are we supposed to know that? I do know there's a. Oh jen will know. There's a reba mcintyre song called one thin dime. That was probably sung around this time and it's just a country song about how, like you can call me, all it takes is a dime. Basically, right, jen, is that how it goes? So that's the reason I might have guessed dime is because of Reba McEntire. All right, so it was 10 cents, everyone 10 cents. Oh, this is a good one for you.
Speaker 1:Okay, what links these clues together? Okay, oh, ganon, magical shield. Oh god, link. Well, it's got to be zelda. Yeah, as soon as you said magical shield, I started to be like I bet it's zelda.
Speaker 1:And then you said link, who I thought was lloyd. No, was it ll Zelda? And then you said Link, who I thought was Lloyd. Now, was it Lloyd? I think I said Lloyd. I don't remember what you said, but listen to our double Nintendo episodes if you haven't yet. We've done a lot of shout outs for that one lately. Yeah, the arcade and stuff. I guess we had arcades and the wizard, although this one has nothing to do with it, but to do with it. But trivia brought us to the video game, awesome. Well, thank you guys, so much and make sure you listen to our Dawson Creek episodes. Yes, we got two this week. We got two. We're catching up and follow us over on Patreon and watch us on YouTube and leave us reviews and share us on social and send us DMs, because we love those too. Got that laundry list of items. Do it. That's all you have to do. Do it all right now and we will see you next time on Generation Inbetween. Bye.
