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Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast
Xennial co-hosts Dani and Katie talk about their analog childhoods, digital adulthoods and everything in between. If you love 1980's and 1990's pop culture content, this is the podcast for you!
Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast
Lisa Frank Revisited: Glitter and Greed Docu-series
Are your childhood notebooks covered in bright neon adorable animals? Does a trapper keeper in hot pink leopard print bring you back?
If you loved back-to-school shopping because it involved glitter, sparkles and unicorns -- you might be a Xennial Lisa Frank fan. And we are... well, we were... too.
Join us as we talk about our thoughts after watching the four-part docu-series Glitter and Greed: The Lisa Frank Story on Amazon Prime. We'd love to hear what you think too! Leave us a comment wherever you listen to podcasts.
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Did you ever carry your homework and a trapper keeper covered with rainbows, dolphins and bright colors? Did you ever trade stickers that were full of neon-colored cheetahs, magical unicorns and adorable puppies and kittens? If you remember watching a young Mila Kunis showcase an array of school supplies and telling us you gotta have it, you might be a Zennial and a Lisa Frank fan. Hi, I'm Dani and I'm Katie. Welcome to Generation In Between, a Zennial podcast where we remember, revisit and sometimes relearn, and sometimes get our heart broken All kinds of things from our 80s childhoods and 90s teen young adulthoods. Yep, and today, if you didn't guess by our intro, we are talking about Lisa Frank again. Yes, we actually delved into the history of Lisa Frank the woman and the company, because, let's be clear, those are two different things that are very interlaced. Obviously, we talked about it way back in our second episode last year on school supplies. Yes, so go check it out if you haven't listened to it yet. But today we're chatting about her again, specifically because of the recent documentary that was released on Amazon prime called glitter and greed. And if you're watching us on YouTube, you can see I am dressed in theme, where I have a neon leopard onesie that a friend gave to me for my birthday that I've actually surprisingly worn many times. You would think you wouldn't have much use for it and yet I actually have slept in this too. I even have a tail everyone You'll see video on our socials. Because I was so cold and I came to bed and Troy was like, are you serious? Because I was so cold and I came to bed and Troy was like, are you serious? Yes, you're like. I know I don't look serious, but I'm very serious. Being married to me is a party everybody. But anyway. But before we dive into all that, we're going to chat about what we did last weekend, which is Katie's theme wear for today. She has on a special sweatshirt. So, katie, tell everyone For the YouTubers I'm trying to show you I am wearing a really awesome long sleeve, comfy tee or sweatshirt from Podfest and it says powered by coffee and content Love. And then, which sleeve is it? That one? It says sleeve. It says podcaster on the sleeve. So if you're on there, hashtag podcaster. I don't think we use that hashtag. I think you did, did I? Uh-huh, all right, pretty sure, but we'll double check after this because I could be wrong.
Speaker 1:But yes, we went to Podfest in Orlando. We were there Friday, stayed the night and then we were there Saturday, went to all sorts of like back-to-back-to-back sessions. Yeah, met amazing people, basically just kind of encouraged us to keep going the path we're going, get more video out there. So either you're welcome or I'm sorry, but like, more video content is coming your way, things like just making more shorts of what we record, more reels, that sort of thing, along with continuing to improve our audio and our content and all the things. I mean, obviously we're super professional over here, but it was a good time. I mean, we went to lots of sessions.
Speaker 1:Now, pod fest itself actually started Thursday and went through Sunday, but we money, money wise, we couldn't and we're, you know, it's only an hour from us, we're pretty local. People were flying in from all over. I mean, there were people from other countries even. Um. So, but shout out to all the fun people we met. We met some and I'm trying to remember all their names and now I'm blanking. I kind of don't want to say anything because I think I'll forget one person and then I'll feel really bad. But if we met you at pod fest, hey, hey, hey, and thanks for actually listening to us. I have all of y'all's podcasts or upcoming podcasts on my list, because some of y'all have not launched yet and we can't wait to hear it and support you. And if you want to come on our show, give us a Zennial topic that you are an expert on and you can come on. You can. Or if you're just a Zennial, yeah, exactly, so that was really fun. It, yeah, exactly so that was really fun.
Speaker 1:It was and and I'm jealous because, katie's, they had this cool thing, uh, in the um, like the expo hall where you could buy stuff, and it was like you could pick your certain piece of merch like a sweatshirt, a t-shirt, they had hats and then get whatever you want printed on it. And we waited too long. We went it was like an hour before they closed on the second day and we went in there and I saw the sweatshirt kitty has on Cause I don't like hoodies, like I'm weird, like I like it's a. I don't like the hood in the back, it's just annoying. And plus, when I wear sweatshirts, like when I'm training clients, the hood gets in the way and like floppy and anyway, yeah, no, I get it, thanks. But we saw this cute sweatshirt she's wearing and I was like, oh, I want one.
Speaker 1:But they were sold out of short people sizes. They didn't even have medium. I know you would have had to get a large. I like to wear my sweatshirts big anyway, but the large was like so long.
Speaker 1:It was like a dress. It it's unisex too, isn't it? Yeah, so it's like a large men's, which for me is big and baggy and kind of fun, but I'm, you know, almost five foot eight, yeah, and I'm five two, so you can imagine it wasn't going to work. It was like I was playing dress up in my dad's shirt. Yeah, it was a bummer, but we'll get you jealous.
Speaker 1:It's fine, it's fine, everyone's fine. I mean, you are in the neon unicorn, not unicorn, neon leopard print onesie. So you shouldn't be jealous and shout out to one of I mean, I know 80, a hundred Sarah's. But my friend Sarah, who lives in Virginia, bought me this for my birthday. Was it last year or year before? Anyway, sarah, love you, thank you.
Speaker 1:I think every time I wear it you are the best, and she wears it a lot. I really do, do we quickly? Let's save it for the end If you stick around to the end, because I want to get into Lisa Frank. For the people that don't know us and have tuned in for Lisa Frank, yeah, but we do want to talk about something we watched in our hotel room. But we'll wait, yeah, wait, yeah, we'll wait till the end. We'll save that for the end. So, um, if you're done listening to lisa frank and don't want to hear that story, you'll be able to click out, all right. So let's do it, let's go.
Speaker 1:Why don't you tell everybody the official summary, uh, of glitter and greed, the lisa frank story that you can find on amazon prime? Yes, so it's a four-part documentary event that penetrates the neon-hued world of lisa frank inc. A brand that defined girlhood for a generation of Americans, only to seemingly disappear overnight. Behind the rainbows and psychedelic illustrations, we unravel a nostalgia-soaked, stranger-than-fiction tale that takes us into the hidden world that has been lurking at the heart of the company for decades. Just to be clear, that's Amazon Prime's summary, or the documentarian's summary, or whatever. Yeah, because there's some gender coded stuff in there. Yeah, that is probably not quite right, but that is the summary of what we're about to talk about today. Yeah, let's get into it.
Speaker 1:So when I first started watching. So there's four episodes, right? Okay, so I took notes in my little Care Bearer notebook that y'all may have seen and are real. I'm like you know what notebook is this? It says when things change inside you, things change around you. Katie's so inspirational and I'm like Care Bear tabs. I'm like which inspirational journal shall I write in today? It's this one. It's so funny because I have so many notebooks and stuff that I use for random shit and katie, literally, is like a big journaler. She tries so hard to get me to be one and I'm I'm already failing, like the one you gave me. I'm just supposed to write him once a week. Yeah, once a week. Yeah, I'm failing already. That's okay, you can't fail. I actually missed that one last week. I missed the day completely anyways. But okay, don't worry, because notebooks are being used for things like notes on Lisa Frank docs.
Speaker 1:So correct way we did this. We just took notes. It's not like our nostalgic or problematic where we have like little little emojis, yeah. But so the first episode, they kind of talked about all the stuff we talked about in our episode on in our school supply one and we talked about Lisa Frank. On that I went back probably only about 15 minutes of that episode, 15 or maybe 20. I like did such a big deep dive into that research. It felt like it was so much longer. It felt long. So like, while I was watching that first episode I was like I wrote down we were pioneers, we were already talking about this Although, to be fair, they were probably making this long before our episode aired.
Speaker 1:But, yes, you're right. Well, so it is four parts. So let's just quickly say the first part is really just laying the foundation, yeah, literally who the woman is, where she's, from her training, her beginning business, how she got the idea, how she got the idea and kind of setting it up. Then it does that first episode tie into her later husband, who's not Frank Frank, which is what we've been calling him because we couldn't remember his name Instead the very memorable James Green, and kind of starts to scratch the surface on that relationship, including his involvement at Lisa Frank Inc. Right, that was the first episode, yeah. And then the third one it was her, one of her sons, hunter. And then the fourth one was like, um, how she kind of like fucked a lot of people at first, how a lot of people have, yeah, so I had a lot of notes um, me too, so I don't know.
Speaker 1:Okay, some of this, I'm like what was I talking about? Yeah, I wrote down in quotation marks wild cats with patterns. First five minutes of doc. Yeah, what was I talking about? I mean, they just automatically say they referenced it, yet wild cats with patterns, I don't know why I yeah, yeah, they did, they totally did because I was like, yes, wild cats, that's probably. That's probably what I'm like, trying to go dig back through my head of like what was the narrative in my head? That's's probably what it was. I was like, yes, okay, it was what I really liked about the very beginning of the series. So, two parts here. Before the intro, music plays which I want to talk about. Yeah, in a second.
Speaker 1:But before that they do kind of just like these snippets of all these different people sort of saying, yeah, who Lisa Frank is, and it's people who are like it had like Chrissy Teigen on there who was like, when you think of the nineties, what do you wish you could get back, or what do you miss the most. And she says Lisa Frank meaning the design stuff, not the person. Well, I don't know, but probably not. And then, but then intertwined, are people saying not nice things about her. So it's already very big juxtaposition and you're feeling the nostalgia for all the images that are in front of you. But then you're seeing people who are like in tears or like like I was sued by her or whatever, right right away. Oh yeah, so I thought they set that up really good.
Speaker 1:Well, it's like because Lisa Frank it you know, katie and I, if you're new here um, we rewatch things from the eighties and nineties and that's we call that our nostalgic or problematic series. But that's exactly what lisa frank is. She is nostalgic and problematic, like her and her company. Oh, definitely, and it's a weird balance which I think the documentary does well at like showing both sides of things, and it's it makes you be like, okay, but can I still hold the nostalgia, even at the same time as recognizing the problems? It's weird. Yeah, I will say not that there's a whole lot of her stuff you can buy anymore. It's more like she licenses it out.
Speaker 1:I will not buy anything lisa frank again after watching this. I will not give that company any more money. I will not. And I look at me, I know it's okay, you can, I'm like I will not. I don't to be fair, though, like this is not. I look at me. I know it's okay, you can. I'm like I will not. I don't To be fair, though, like this is not, lisa Frank, what I'm wearing it's not. There's so many copycat. Totally, I'll buy the copycats.
Speaker 1:I love the aesthetic. I mean freaking look at our backdrop again. Like she does not own this aesthetic, which we'll talk about later, oh yeah, but so I mean, the only thing I bought that was certified Lisa Frank was those nail, those nail wraps, remember, and they sucked, they were shitty, they weren't good, but anyway, okay, let's, let's just talk. So I love that. Speaking of that, I love that they the whole way the documentarian did the whole aesthetic, but like with the little cartoony, like clips. I love that. That was fun. It was like little stop motion animation and it was bright colors and in some cases it would be like an illustrated person with the person's like photo face stuck on it. It was really cool. I love that. It was very throwbackish, but done modernly, if that makes sense, you could tell the technology was modern. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I I also the first gal who talks in the documentary wrote that jezebel article and that we use that in our research for.
Speaker 1:Well, I did, because I did the research for that one and we put we put it in the episode, um, and I was like when they started talking about the article I was like, oh yeah, that was hello, I used that. Um, yeah, but Okay, this is just like totally dumb. When they were showing some of the old designs, I was like so excited I love the artwork. It was Hello, those artists are so talented, so good, oh, my God. I love when they showed some of their original art too. But my favorite that I saw in the first episode was the one they did of elephant John. That was supposed to be like Elton John. I don't think I was ever aware of that until this documentary and I was in love with it. I need that in my life. Yeah, elephant John was amazing. Yeah, I loved that too.
Speaker 1:And so then the intro music to each one was more oh yeah about that. It wasn't stop motion, it was live video, but it had this very dark aesthetic where it had like unicorns and rainbows and stuff, and then by the end of in this sort of suspenseful music and by the end of the I don't know 30 to 45 second intro music. Everything was crashing and breaking. They were they weren't stickers, it was like 3d objects that were glass, at least in the intro, and I thought that was really well done. Good, it was like really really good.
Speaker 1:Um, but anyway, y'all don't need our like no, but you should see it, you should. We're talking about this bullshit. So again, in the first episode they do set the stage for like, who is she? So we should talk about that for a minute. Right, they talk about, um, well, do we want to go into all that? Because we already did that in episode. We, we did. But if people are just found us for this, I figured just a quick gloss over, okay, well, and also, it, I think at least how she got started as an artist will inform like what we're talking about later in the documentary. That's why I was like, do we talk about it again? Or we just say y'all go, check out our other episode, because I mean you could, I mean the.
Speaker 1:The bottom line is and, and you'll see as we go along, she has a history of I guess it's allegedly, but kind of stealing other people's ideas. Oh yeah, and it goes way back, true, because, yeah, go ahead, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, so she's kind of started. I guess it was when she was in college. Your research for the other episode was better on this part because it was more in depth and they kind of glossed over it in the documentary. I felt like they mentioned it and kept going, which was kind of odd.
Speaker 1:But she would go to reservations, like indigenous reservations. Yeah, she was in New Mexico I think it was Arizona, and she would buy indigenous art and then bring it back and either tweak it or just sell it as is and mark it up and resell it. Yeah, so it was. It wasn't even her art and that's kind of how she started. And then she made jewelry and called it sticky fingers, sticky fingers, which I did think it was funny. Her friend from college was one of the people and they were like, do you know why she called it sticky fingers? He said I guess because she always had glue on her fingers. Nah, I mean I don't know, but I mean she, she tends to steal ideas from people, so we'll just keep that in mind as we go on.
Speaker 1:Um, and we did talk about that in depth we did in our past episode big time. I, you can find it, it's pretty easy, it's easy. Um, I thought it was funny too when you said the elephant, john. I wrote down that I really liked the punk poodle and, oh, I knew you would. Cleo catra, yes, cleo cat, oh, my god, they were so, so, so cute.
Speaker 1:Um, so once they start talking about how she actually launched her actual lisa frank inc. Yeah, uh, and then she brings in james green. Who is this? I will say he, he's clearly a talented artist. Oh, no, he is talented. And I will say he did and we'll talk about. Well, we'll just do it now. He did. Come on the documentary. At least lisa frank is not on this documentary at all. She just gave this dumb generic statement. But that's pretty. That lines up with her from the past.
Speaker 1:She was never very into being in the public eye like that and I don't know why. I don't know if she had social anxiety or she. I mean, I didn't know what she looked like till this documentary. I'd never looked her up. I did just from our research before, but like there's not a lot. Well, and before this documentary there what, it was even harder to find stuff because she didn't really do a lot of interviews, like she had that one that they kept referencing, but that's one of the only ones she did, um, even in her big heyday.
Speaker 1:But, oh God, when he came on, I'm like, okay, here we go. And I went into it already knowing he was a dick, right. But then he presented himself as a dick. Yes, instantly, yes, well, when people were talking about him okay, like they had video of him at the wedding too Like, did you pick up on that, his body language, like the way he was talking to people, not just her I was like because all I wrote down was yuck, video of him at the wedding, yeah. And I think one of the first things he said when he came on I don't know if I wrote it down, but he said he said Lisa Frank, I am Lisa Frank. Oh, yeah, he said that in the second part. Oh, that was the second part, okay. Or he said I am the documentary, or something like that yeah, a Lisa Frank documentary, I am the documentary, something like that.
Speaker 1:So again, I will say, over the arch of the four episodes, I found him a little more sympathetic as it went on, not excusing the way he treated people, because that was not it. But I was a little more sympathetic to the art, slash company ownership stuff as the documentary went on. Slash company ownership stuff, yeah, as the documentary went on, because despite his attitude and everything else he really did build the brand. And then when they got divorced he got none of it. Yeah, and I don't know.
Speaker 1:I just felt like, and as an artist I could see, just in those moments he seemed a little more human to me. You could see the sadness in his eyes. I think that one of the documentary producers asked you know, do you have, do you wish you still had, some of that, your original artwork? And he looked heartbroken. He was like, yeah, of course, like I wish I had my art, you know, and you really could kind of just see. And then of course, there's family wish I had my art, you know, and you really could kind of just see. And then of course there's family dynamic stuff from when they get divorced. It's incredibly sad.
Speaker 1:So anyway, I found him to be a little more sympathetic as it went on, especially as we start to kind of understand the way that Lisa Frank is, I think, when he was first like, oh, it's all me, blah, blah, blah. I was like, oh my God, god, poor lisa frank, because this guy's just mansplaining which he was doing. He did well and he was very just, I don't know. Well, nobody. Like we always say nobody is just one thing right, true, so like nobody is just all bad, all right. There's lots of different levels here. Like, and you can be a shitty person at work and be a great person at home, or vice versa, correct? Like I've known people who their coworkers love them, think they're amazing, but they're absolutely awful in their home life, of course, of course. So you know, that's just an example. So he's not like, I don't know. I still don't like him very much, but I don't really like her very much either. That's, I think that's my point. So, like I started to be like, well, she's pretty terrible too and toxic. You know, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I feel like most people at our age have had a toxic relationship at some point in their life. Like, I feel like it's just a various level. Sometimes they're absolutely really terrible, sometimes they're not, but when you are with a toxic person, it brings out all your toxic things too. It's true, you know what I mean. It's true, I've definitely, I've definitely known people in my life like that as well, yeah, where they act totally it's almost like it lives in them but it's dormant. But then with the right other person, it's the catalyst that triggers it. Yeah, I mean I had a when I was in college. I had a not great relationship for a long time and he was toxic.
Speaker 1:But I was toxic with him, like oh yeah, like I'm not just saying it was all him, I mean he did some things that were pretty inexcusable, but I did too, like yeah, we screamed at each other, it was bad. So, like you know, I feel like negative energy pulls out negative energy and so like anyway, but so Jane's green. But but, speaking of that, the shit he did to those co-workers and we talked about this on our episode that dumb newsletter he had about this on our episode, that dumb newsletter he had frankly, frankly speaking. Frankly speaking was, hello, patriarchy, gross. I just he was so gross and all his little rules and stuff. And then I felt so bad about that one lady who was like, oh, I have to leave early. And then he was like then he would padlock the door because she was trying to like, get to an appointment for a kid. Yeah, like that, yeah, and he would padlock the door so people couldn't leave. And then the one person who they were just expected to work late but he hadn't brought in food with him and he was diabetic, right, well, so he stayed an hour it was like six, yeah, and he tried to leave and then he got fired, not that night, but like the next day or something, and they deny it. Well, we'll get into, yeah, we'll get into that, but yeah, but I do think, like, I think that speaks volumes.
Speaker 1:Now, granted, this documentary is just some sides of the story, right, when you have that many people who worked at a company that felt away but it was interesting, because some people, even though it was problematic, they said I loved, loved working there. It was, oh, yeah, you know, like, even though it was a shit show, right, it was, it was a great, whatever, and, but anyway, as an, I think there could be two sides to that, because, as an artist, it was probably very fulfilling, well, and you were part, your art was part of something culturally iconic, correct, which will never happen again for them, I'm sure. Right, so there's that. But then the unfortunate downside there was the man on there I think he worked there for four years, who was saying he'd driven home contemplating taking his own life? Oh my God, yes, because it was so toxic. And also just the discrepancy in wealth too. They didn't delve too far into it, but at least a few of the people they interviewed hinted at the pay not being great. Yeah, depending what your position was. Yeah, the one artist and he shared a few things that he'd done and he said that you know, he was living paycheck to paycheck and while the company itself was banging, like, like, and that's the shitty part, and that's what I can't stand about. Hello capitalism. Right is that companies make all this fucking money but can't pay their employees jack shit. So it's like you're not getting compensate. Who's getting all the benefits? It's all the bigwigs and top that are already making. Well, and he gave the example that everyone at the company was invited to their wedding. Oh right, and he's sitting here not sure how he can like buy Christmas gifts for his kids. And then all this nonsense and there's like fireworks and all this craziness.
Speaker 1:What did you think about her? And I know I'm blurring episode lines here, but what did you think about her wedding dress? Look, I don't even remember it. She had like one of those wide brimmed white hats with neon flowers, oh yeah, and then the veil had neon flowers, I guess it didn't stick out to me. All I wrote down was, oh my God, the baby cradle. I guess it didn't stick out to me. All I wrote down was, oh my God, the baby cradle, oh yeah, and that was hand painted by two of their employees. I know, yeah, it was wicked awesome, it was really cool, it was all sorts of colorful and, yeah, it was really really beautiful. Yeah. But also, let me just say so, I don't remember her wedding dress. I mean, it was an 80s wedding dress. I mean it was an 80s wedding dress, it was. Her hair was very big.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I was more focused on him and his like. True, but you know, let's just say this because this was back in the 80s and 90s, early 90s Like a lot of stuff that happened at that company companies could not get away with now. No, not even remotely, not even close, thank God. So like I was able to see a little bit of evolution there with, like HR stuff Well, it still happens. And also just like the burden of proof is easier now, oh, that's true, meaning everything from being able to record what someone's saying secretly on a cell phone to email trails, text trails, whereas a lot of this stuff, of course, as it got further into the 90s and the 2000s, there was more email and things like that, but it was just, it's just people saying they said this Right, they did this Right, and again, the amount of people saying that makes you like, okay, well, there's something there. And then we still have physical copies of, frankly speaking, the company newsletter. That was horrible. So, um, but it, I think, proving this kind of stuff, yeah, and it's good, because I feel like people in power are aware of that too, right, and they know they have to kind of walk the line because somebody's gonna call them out for it and have proof if they don't.
Speaker 1:Unless you're in a super high office of authority and where you get away with all kinds of I'm not saying people sorry, it's been a week, but it's harder. It's been a week, it's been a week whatever, and I I'm not gonna go down that road, because y'all have listened to us long enough. You know where we stand and you know what we're standing up for these days. Yep, anyway, we're talking about Lisa Frank and her husband's bullshit and her bullshit.
Speaker 1:So one thing about him that I thought was an interesting idea that he said, and and somebody else said it was his idea, so I'm going to, I'm going to give him credit for it. Where he said the idea, um, where he had the characters having eye contact with the buyer. I never realized that but I'm like, oh, that's genius. Yeah, it's genius because they do, and that is why you love them, because it's like their little neon eyes are looking at their soul and they're big. And they're big, yeah, like cute little, like Furbies and their big eyes, yeah, and like the Funko Pops and all that, yeah. And someone else said it was his idea that phrase collect them all. Oh, did you see that? Like when this was, when it was still that just always makes me think of Pokemon, right, yeah, but they showed on the screen. This was for stickers, right, stick. They showed on the screen. Um, this was for stickers, right, stickers, the sticker stickers. So it was like on the back of the stickers or something.
Speaker 1:And then you could write to Lisa Frank or like do mail order stuff, and I just I mean it seems simple, but it's it. It's a good call to action, but sometimes the most simple things are the most genius ideas Totally, because we try and do too much when sometimes it's just the most simple, basic things, that and it gets through to people. Oh yeah, yeah, you don't need like elaborate um things. So okay, you have anything else from the first? No, we can move on, so let's just get.
Speaker 1:We're already here talking about his self. I already said my emotions about him, but I thought it was super interesting. Like as you watch the documentary, then you hear from his son and then they talk about how close they are. But one of the first things Frank said was I didn't want to be a dad. He's like he did. They were like, and I mean I get it, but also like they were like did you want to have kids? He's like no, and I mean I get it. But also I don't know.
Speaker 1:Now that you do it, yeah, I get it. I mean when I was a, but also I don't know Now that you do it. Yeah, I get it. I mean when I was a young.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now that you did is supposedly you and your son are best friends, which that's something else to talk about, but I just like I know, when I was younger, I didn't think I was going to have kids, like. I just thought I wasn't one of those little girls who was like I can't wait to be a mom. And then then, obviously, obviously, I changed my mind. Yeah, and then then we had one kid. I was like I'm done, I don't want anymore, and I said that and then changed my mind. So I think it's different, but I mean I would never sit there and be like, but maybe it's editing. I'm just about to say it was out of context, because if you filmed me, if you recorded me right now saying that, right, but we didn't say, didn't put anything in that you've just said Correct, and all we took was you saying I didn't want to be a mom, right, no way, right, so maybe that's it.
Speaker 1:Then it's like, well, that's rude. She has two sons. I hope they don't know. I don't know, though, even in the pictures Again, but they had the pictures of like Lisa with the boys, and it all looked very performative and they were like not near each other. When she would have them in an embrace, they'd be kind of stepped out from her.
Speaker 1:I didn't know everything with him. They were like on his lap, sitting right next to him and he just had this look on his face of just like joy, I don't know, kind of like I don't know. I just I didn't like how, like how, though he was like that with the one kid but not the other, yeah, and he said like well, hunter, or maybe it was Hunter the son who said, like I was with my dad, forrest was with her. It's almost like he picked one. Well, what I couldn't figure out was it sounded like they were required by law to stay with their mom. This was after the divorce which usually happens in court. It does, especially now not, I'm sorry, especially then. Yeah, I mean, now, now it's not as, now it's not now they favor 50, 50 in all situations unless you can prove there's a reason not to right. But back then, that's, that's how it was. Um, so it sounded like he took he being Hunter the older boy, took the extra step to go live with his dad, whereas, like Forrest maybe didn't. Well, forrest was younger, he was younger, so like, so he didn't have the same memories of his dad living with him.
Speaker 1:Well, and also, you have a different childhood than your sibling. Yes, you may share, you may share a family and a house, but, like, especially like my sister and I talk about that all the time especially because we have a big age gap and, like my kids too, they have almost six years between them. They have different parents, like it's a different environment, right. So, who knows, who knows? And forrest didn't? Katie's texting for those of y'all, sorry, my daughter has to be somewhere. So I need to make sure that.
Speaker 1:Speaking of parenting, that's why I said that my husband's out of town for work, which is fine, it's just, he never is gone, right, he's always here. So we have four drivers in our house, but we have three cars. Right, has a car. I have a car because I'm here, and then my son has a car, but my daughter, who can drive but doesn't have a car, needs to be somewhere. So I've asked my son to take her and if, if there was a reason he couldn't that I wasn't aware of, yeah, I would have to like leave, like right now, but he just said he can take her. So we're good now. Five kids guys, yeah, and then there's, you know, three more just chilling at home. I hope they're okay. I I say that because Katie is always, um, she's always on duty for always on duty, more so right now with my husband out of town. Yeah, you know, I understand that.
Speaker 1:That was a life I lived for a long time. Any who's back to it? Yeah, I think the divorce thing, I think that the way that that was explained to was very indicative of the times, and I'm not saying it doesn't happen now, yeah, yeah, but the whole mom gets the priority for having the kids with her and dad gets every other weekend, which, if you think about it, that's two out of every 14 days that you're with your children. Can you even imagine that? Yes, because my parents were divorced, but that was a standard it was, and I I just think about, like, as a child of divorce, and so is my husband.
Speaker 1:It's hard, even if the divorce is needed. Like my parents and his parents should not have continued to be married, like. I think they held on as long as they could, for whatever reason it was, but they did not need to be married. Uh, but it it is traumatic for everyone. Like I re, I can remember like, and so in my case, my dad moved out and we stayed in the house that I grew up in because I was nine, 10 ish, but he would come pick us up for like his weekend, and I did never wanted to go because it's just depressing, right, and I'm sure that was so hard for him. Like I would scream and cry, like can you imagine your kid being like I don't want to go spend time with you? And it wasn't that, it was just everything felt so foreign and weird and like my stuff wasn't there and like I didn't really want to go Cause it just was just this and plus, well, other things. But it was just like. I just imagine like for kids it's traumatic, for parents it's traumatic, it's just traumatic, it's just a hard, and I think it's a hard thing that they really showed that well in this. Yeah, and, and the effects of it still linger. Oh yeah, I mean it's the older one seems like lives with James. Now they're in Mexico. Is that where they were? I think that's where he said they're out of the country. I assume Forrest is a grown person at this point, but him and his mom are still close wherever they are. They're both grown adults and this is still the case.
Speaker 1:In the final episode, james said something. He said you know that Hunter's my best friend or whatever, and he said Forrest is a work in progress and it's just, and that I felt the sadness in that, like that he didn't, that it's unfortunate to him. Yeah, and so, and again for her, she didn't come on the documentary and I feel like I feel like that hurt her. Oh yeah, because I'm sitting here talking about this man who people have said was terrible, is whatever. Well, and he was locked the doors and he was, and I'm saying, but I felt like he was humanized a little. I can't say that about her. There was nothing, it just her blank statement that was like right, whatever. Well, here's the thing. So let's talk about her.
Speaker 1:So what, what do we think the deal is with her? Like I wrote this down, I was like what's her deal? Like she wasn't I said she wasn't the greatest either because in my research for our other episode it was mostly the stuff that was out there was about him. Yeah, it was. We didn't really talk much about her being and I'm like it seems to me like they both have some like issues, right. Yeah, like, maybe mental health for her. I think for her there's some kind of mental health trauma, stuff, untreated from who knows what. Yep, but then I was like are we being fed a different narrative now, like what I don't know, like it's like what's the deal? And like why? Why her silence? Is it just because she has social anxiety? Is it just because she has control issues and doesn't want her words? But like what is it? Like, what is it? So? What do you think her deal is? I? That's a great question.
Speaker 1:And again, like you were saying about the different employees saying what James did, I think this documentary had its told from so many different perspectives that it did make me realize that she's got a pattern of stealing other people's things, not giving people either regular credit or financial credit for it, and it's a pattern that dates back to when she was buying things on the reservations and reselling it with a markup. You know, she all that work James did. She managed somehow in court to fight him long enough that he didn't get any of that or his original artwork, which, to me, some of that's rightfully his. Yeah, and then, um, you know this is later on, but we might as well talk about it now. We get into other creators who again didn't know these things about her necessarily, who wanted to collaborate with her.
Speaker 1:Um, glamour dolls, right, this makeup, makeup startup. And then, um, tassel fairy, yeah, and, and how she just takes and takes and takes and then turns around and is like what, like art is art is owned by everyone, like you don't own this idea? Or? Or turns it around like she, like she did in her divorce which I know is common for divorce to make him look so bad. And then the glamour dolls thing which we'll get into, making it look like they were the issue, yeah, and then Tasso fairy basically saying, well, I, I didn't. How would I know what your ideas are, when she has documentation that her ideas were stolen, right, and it's so many different sources and over such a long period of time. Yeah, that to me it does add up to.
Speaker 1:She's doing these things. Oh, yeah, I mean like, but what do you think? Like? I guess what my question was was like, what do you think the root of it is? I don't know what's her deal, like you said, is it imposter syndrome? I don't know. Like. I feel like she definitely has control issues, yeah, yeah, and she's definitely greedy and self, but I do feel like there's like this other weird, like she doesn't know how to connect with people authentically. So I don't know what that means.
Speaker 1:Like I still feel for me, I'm always like it all comes back to untreated mental health things. That's what I always think it is, it probably is, and like because it just like I don't know what, because obviously I'm not a mental health things, that's what I always think it is. And like because it just like I don't know what, cause obviously I'm not a mental health professional. Um, but like he was a mess. Oh, let's talk about like he's a mess, but I feel like being James. Yeah, okay, he's a mess, but then when she got back in charge after he was gone, it was still a mess, correct. So like he, he made it a mess, but then she also kept it being a mess and then it got even worse.
Speaker 1:It sounded too to me and and I can, oh my gosh, I can relate to this so much that she might have a disorganization disorder. Oh, yeah, because particularly when he left the company and it was all on her, which is what she thought she wanted it sounded like she couldn't organize around what needed to be done, so production really slowed, which, again, that is also untreative mental health stuff. Totally, that's a problem that I have. I get so overwhelmed and it stacks and, stacks and stacks and then nothing gets done or whatever. And that's something I have to work on. It's something I'm aware of and I deal with and handle and treat and all the things. But maybe she has something like that and then it affects her relationships too, right, which, speaking of relationships, I feel bad for the kid because he comes off like an ass, but I am almost.
Speaker 1:But I also wonder if what narrative he was fed by the dad, because that's who he was with, like now? Granted, he has his formative memories, but you know, it's interesting when you talk about memories, because not everything we remember is factual, right, it's? I? I think I like listened to malcolm gladwell do a podcast series about that or something, or maybe it was one of his books about how even something we remember, the somebody else could remember totally different. So then, where's the truth is? Somewhere in between. That's what they say about eyewitness accounts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we talked about that with true crime or whatever. Yeah, that they. You can't really rely on them because five different people will say something different. Yeah, and they're not lying. Yeah, it's how they remember it. Yeah, and I feel bad for him because I feel like he comes off kind of like, but like he he came from. You know parents who didn't have a healthy relationship. You know that affects you.
Speaker 1:I don't know what narrative he was being fed by the dad because, like my mom, you know when she was angry and I'm sure she probably regrets some of the stuff she said. But she would tell me you know stuff about my dad, like when I was a young kid and I would carry that into whatever. Yeah, and when you interacted with him and I mean I mean, listen, I'm an adult who makes mistakes constantly and so I'm not going to like throw a bunch of hate towards my mom, like she's doing the best she could, but also like she did tell me like nasty things about my dad, like well, he's selfish and he's that and blah, blah, like really you should keep like that to yourself. And I think there's a lot more awareness around that too, and I'm not just saying I'm not, I know it still happens, cause, like I've seen it in action, just in families, we know Right, right, right.
Speaker 1:But I do think overall the narrative that you really need to keep the adult stuff to the adults and the kids stuff to the kids and that really what's best for your kids, unless a parent is actually unsafe, correct Is for them to think highly of both parents. That is better for them. Correct, and their mental health. And now, granted, like, like you're saying, obviously, if there's an unsafe situation, that is something that's totally different. Like if your dad comes to pick you up from school, don't get in the car with him. He is unsafe and probably drunk and doing drugs or whatever. Yeah, that's the case, right, not not otherwise, I think too.
Speaker 1:Like I also think you should be honest with kids. I think they deserve truth, that's true, but also truth they can handle, right and understand. Well, and I think it comes back to intent Is your intention to give your child the truth, right, because you would like them to process it? Or is your intention spite or anger or hate, Because then it's not coming from the right place and that's hard. I mean, trust me, oh yeah, it's hard. I mean, trust me, oh yeah, it's hard to deal with those emotions and especially a divorce that maybe you don't want or maybe you want it, but the conditions surrounding it aren't great. Yeah, I think that it's hard. We're humans, um, but yeah, I just, I was also thinking too, with hunter, the older of the two, who is close with the dad but really annoyed with his mom at the moment, who, who his mom, has sued him.
Speaker 1:I just think that's kind of funny wild. So he had to take down, like some of his videos, because she's threatened. The lawsuit well, likes to sue people. Oh god, please don't come after us. We have nothing we have. I mean, they can sue us. Then we'll get like you'll be sad because we ain't got nothing, nothing, nothing.
Speaker 1:Um, he, I got the vibe that he resents his mom for his dad leaving. Yeah, and that he's never dealt with that. Yeah, and it might be as simple as that. Yeah, and Well, and what do you feel? Okay, I always, my ears always perk up when I hear I'm sorry, I'm looking at the ears on your outfit. My ears perk up, which are perked Just when your outfit, which are perked. And just when you said that, I was like, yeah, they really do.
Speaker 1:When parents or kids say my dad or my mom is my best friend, I don't know how you feel about that. I just feel like and he's an adult now, but still like your parents should be your parent and love you and you can have a friendship but like your best friend should probably not be your parent. I just think that like blurs lines, when you're younger, he's an adult. I think when you're an adult it's okay. I don't know, I really do. I mean and maybe that's just my own trauma speaking to everyone I think when you, when you become peers and you're never full peers because you're not of the same generation it's different.
Speaker 1:You know, I've spoken before about how my mom has has early onset Alzheimer's and we were very parent and child growing up very much, even in college, and really weren't close. She was fine, I was a good kid, no issues, but like we were not close ever. And there's some things in her past that I've learned about as an adult and things that kind of have made me feel better, yeah, about our relationship because I'm like she is connect, you know, for whatever reasons, right, right, um. And when I became a mom our whole relationship did shift and it changed from sometimes I talk to my mom but like I just do my own thing and she does her own thing, to like how you feel about a best friend. I want to tell her all the things. I want to send her all the pictures not just of my kid but like of what I'm doing. And she would.
Speaker 1:When I lived in Chicago with my baby, she would come over and she would spend the night and I would say we were getting to, I mean, best friend. I don't know if best friend is right or if it would just be. I'm really close with my parent as a friend, but it did feel more like a friendship. And one of my biggest moments of grief has been because we had kind of an eh and then we had a wow, this is how it can be. And then it ended so quickly after that discovery.
Speaker 1:And so to me I think it's possible and it doesn't bother me, especially in that adult setting. I don't know. I just I guess because for me, maybe because I'm not super close with my mom, like um, like I love my mom, like she, but I would never say we had like a peer and like I don't, like I don't think I'm just laughing because I'm remembering something my son said. Uh, my oldest said to my husband like two days ago oh God, cause he said he didn't like to talk to us about stuff, cause it always is like this big drawn out process, and he said, y'all are never just chill, but like I'm, as a parent of a teenager, well, no, you're not. You're not, I like it, we're.
Speaker 1:It's just a hard balance when your kid's 18 and still living at home, yeah, but like that's a tricky spot. You're still a kid, though, like who pays all your bills? You still have a lot of growing up. You haven't left yet. Like, you still need parenting, even though legally you you could go to jail as an adult. Do you know what I mean? So, anyway, I was just thinking about that because, like I don't, I guess, like I'd never want my kid.
Speaker 1:Like you know, I see it with, like teenagers and parents where I find it to be problematic when they act more like friends, like parents that like allow their kids to do things. Maybe they should not a great idea, I'll just put it that way yeah, um, I guess I'd rather my, I don't know, I it's, it's to me it's always like a little. I wouldn't say it's a red flag. I wouldn't say it's a green flag, I say it's a beige flag. I'm always just like, whenever I hear a parent or a kid saying like, oh, my mom or my dad is my best friend, I'm always like I think it depends on the age and maybe because, too, I like like, when I think of friends, like also, like if your husband's your best friend, great, my husband is not my best friend, he's my husband Like, I just feel like it's a whole different level of partnership, like of relationship.
Speaker 1:It's a deeper relationship than that. Yeah, it's a. It's a partnership and I I need to have, like I need to have best friend outside of my marriage, like I need a best friend outside of my kid. I don't know, I get that. Do you know what I'm saying? I will say I could see one day Cooper referring to you as his best friend. I don't think so. I could see it. I mean that's her younger son, he's 12. Especially not right now, cause he I am not now, but I think in like 10 to 15 years.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't think so. I don't think so. I mean I love my. I love my kids are great and I hope that even with all like the Rocky stuff and apparently we're not chilling, you can't talk to us, cause it takes us a week to make decisions I hope eventually they do feel comfortable and like that like really bothered my husband, like he was like well, cause, you want your kids to want to talk to you and we try, like we both come from like broken marriages and like traumatic things, like we try so hard to not do the things that we didn't enjoy from our parents, like we try really hard and it's it's like, ah, we're still fucking up. Well, you know what I mean. It's like we try so hard and then we then you know those moments as a parent we're like shit, I still messed it up. So it's just, he was having one of those moments, right, and it is, it's, it's like one of those times. But anyway, no, no, I feel you, moving on from oh, did you look look at that? You gotta do it like this I did, because you're a leopard there. It is now we all that are just listening to us and you don't see the video. I, you just need to go look it up. I'm doing weird things in my hands and I, I love it. You're me. You're me also. Let's just flip the script and talk about something else. That's not sad, although this whole thing is sad.
Speaker 1:The factory if I could have seen it in its heyday it's in tucson. I know tucson, arizona, it's. It's interesting because it's a very modern shape. It's just like this giant square, it it's almost like a block, a full block, but it's kind of out in the middle of nowhere, yeah, and it's everything you would think a Lisa Frank factory or warehouse would be. It's beautiful, kind of colorful glass on the outside and then when you go inside, it's like Lisa Frank spewed everywhere the colors, the rainbows, the unicorns, and I thought that it was a very at least what they showed in the documentary very modern. Look inside too, like very clean. Yeah, it'd be like if our podcast had a company. That's what it would look like, honestly, like for reals.
Speaker 1:You know, it's funny that you said that when I was watching the Tassel Ferry part of this, it was someone who decorated her whole apartment and lisa frank's house. Like if we ever have a dedicated studio, it needs to be like paint the cupboard top paint like leopard print table. I was like dreaming it up. Oh god, so let's talk, let's jump into all that then, because we're moving into, like the last episode, which is where they talk about all of this. Let me quickly, just quickly, interject because we didn't say anything about Rondi yet. Oh God, she got on my damn nerves. Did she get on your nerves? Yes and no, again, they humanized her toward the end with me. And do you know how? Do you remember the part that maybe would have made me like, it made me roll my eyes Really, where he said are you tired? That part where her husband came in, yeah, yeah, it made me real mad. Oh, again, that's my own, that's my own trauma. So, real quick, we don't have to spend a lot of time on her.
Speaker 1:Rondi was, like, I think, the singular HR person there, which is wild, yeah, for a big company, and so she was there during the heyday, well over, if mostly james, but sometimes lisa didn't like something, whether it was your drawing, whether it was because you left at a normal time, because you're diabetic and needed food, or yeah, whatever it was, they wouldn't come to you, right? Ron d would call you to her office, ron d, wasn't it? Ron d? It was ronda. I thought, oh they. Well, james called her ron d, was it ron d? I think it was. I wrote Ronda. Well, whoever she is, let me see. I'm like, as you said that. I was like, wait a second, let me look. I thought it was Ronda. Well, either way, hello, so that you all don't have to wait for us.
Speaker 1:She was the Rondi Kutz R-O-N-D-I, the senior Rondi. Oh, no, rondi's the designer. Rondi's this one. I can't. Okay, she's not the enforcer, she's the other one, the one. She was the senior designer with the cute hair. Okay, all right. So just to clarify everyone Isn't Ronda yes, that was her name Ronda say ronda. Sorry, there's a ron d. Okay, that was where I got confused. Ron d was a senior designer. She was a designer, yeah, and seemed really cool. By the way, I liked her.
Speaker 1:And ronda was the enforcer. Sorry, ron d. All right, we're not the enforcer, but either way, she's the hr person and so, um, she fired a lot of people. So in the documentary she looks so much bigger of an age gap from her pictures than everybody else. Yeah, but she did say that toward the end of her time there she was having seizures and having stress related health problems and anyway. So she, she seemed oblivious to the fact that people called her the enforcer and that, like people didn't like her. Did you get that read from her? No, she's like things like I don't know, she was oblivious, like they asked her, but I think she was like, I went and did my job. I think she just chose not to feed into that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, so there was a part where so the other part of it is there were rumors that her and James were having an affair, which they both deny, which has never been proven. I also am like I hate that. That's always the like. We always have to pull that into it, Like you always got to assume there's there's an affair happening. If there's a, you know, do you think there was? No, I don't either. So I honestly don't. I mean he was sleazy and yuck, but I don't, I don't think there was. I don't either. So I honestly don't. I mean he was sleazy and yuck, but I don't, I don't think there was. I don't think there was either.
Speaker 1:I because, and because I feel like that's always the fallback, like that's even come up in our dawson's creek stuff, like you always assume because this and that, like can we just not, maybe it doesn't have to be sexual. Like maybe they just had this work relationship and she was like his right hand man to fire Really want to do all the bullshit. Yeah, and he probably appreciated her and was nice to her. Yeah, and not nice to other people, right, which which happens, sure, with people in power, right, of course. And she's doing his dirty work, correct, that's what I mean, yeah, correct, that's what I mean, yeah, so, but there was a part in the documentary and then we'll move on to the fourth episode of stuff where they asked Rhonda about the affair.
Speaker 1:They're like oh, there's these rumors, you guys had this, and she kind of teared up. She got upset. Yeah, she said no, like there was never an affair, 100 percent. So then you see her husband, who also looks older they both looked at least in their 70s walks in kind of slowly and is like are you okay, are you getting tired? She kind of grabs his hand. She goes I'm always tired.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that got on my nerves and here's why that's my own trauma, speaking everyone, yes, because I just felt like that was so like dramatic, like just playing into, like oh, poor me. And I feel, because I have people in my life who do that and they're like well, the husband's like are you okay, are you getting to? Like you can't handle the interview, like whatever he came in there for cause he heard her getting are you okay, are you tired? She's like I'm always tired, yeah, okay, like I don't know, I know what you mean. I'm sorry, like I just, granted, I don't know, I know what you mean. I'm sorry, like I just that's another granted. I don't know her chronic health issues.
Speaker 1:She only spoke about the anxiety related stuff when she left the company. I don't know if she's battling some stuff that's my own trauma speaking but I just rolled my eyes and I was like, right, like maybe the husband knows more than obviously we saw. Maybe there is something that would have been. Maybe they'd been interviewing her for three hours at that point. I mean, who knows? But but we don't see. All right, but I get what you mean. I was just like really okay, like well, and she had gotten, it was right.
Speaker 1:When she got really worked up, she mentioned how she'd been married for 50 years. Yeah, also too, like I was already irritated with her, so like I'm already annoyed. And then that happened. I was like, uh, like yeah, like she just got on my nerves just the way she was talking about stuff. Yeah, she bothered me, I don't know, I get it. I get it Bothered me, all right, moving on from the enforcer, all right.
Speaker 1:So, so the last episode was about creators. Yeah, small, independent, independent creators, uh, who we love, oh my god. Okay, but yes, what was interesting was the beginning of that episode, um, the, what the lady who was part of the glamour dolls company said nostalgia is big business. Yep, I was like preach it so is because I mean, hello, that's what our whole podcast is about. We ain't got big business, but maybe one day. But it is big business because.
Speaker 1:So why do you think that is? Why do you think nostalgia is big business? Well, particularly for the nineties, I think it's because everyone who has that nostalgia is our age, and we are at the age not everyone, and this is coming from a place of privilege that we can buy the things and we want our kids to know about the things, and so, therefore, and with social media, people are in podcasting and things like that people are reminding us of those things constantly. Like that, people are reminding us of those things constantly. I think nostalgia is big business because, no matter what decade it is, it reminds you of something right. And I feel like people who are the biggest well, no, that's not true.
Speaker 1:I was going to say the biggest components of people who love nostalgia are like middle-aged or older, but that's not true, because younger people also like the nostalgia because it's cool, like it's retro, absolutely Right. Because when I was in high school, I was like obsessed with like the sixties Right, that was retro to me, like I loved wearing bell bottoms and all that stuff and like hippie culture and all of that, totally hippie culture and all of that. And so I feel like because nostalgia, you miss the idea of something, but the reality was shit, was still problematic, but it reminds you of probably an easier time or what you think was an easier time, definitely. And nostalgia is usually the fun stuff. Oh, yeah, it's the leopard, it's the highlight stickers of that time, the music yeah, it's the highlights of the time, not like the bullshit, it's not like the political turmoil or the recession that happened or whatever you know it's, it's those things and so I think, so I mean, I think that's why it's big business and and if you can pull at someone's heartstrings, whether that's nostalgia or whether it's not, but you're able to make some emotional connection yeah, you know people who love Disney. You're able to. Yeah, which is a lot of people, including people in this room. I love Disney. I was looking at your bell cup and that's what made me think of it, um, her bell coffee mug. But I think that you, if you can pull on their heartstrings, you know who cares. If they already have one bell mug, you do another bell mug and this one's got a little bit different. You pull on something different. You're gonna buy another one, right? And that's, I think, how nostalgia is too right for sure, okay.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about the glamour dolls. Oh my god, okay. So first of all, if you haven't watched it yet, glamour Dolls was a startup makeup company. Is, was, I don't think Was, and they're animal or cruelty-free and vegan, uh-huh. And so they were kind of it's two people, peter, why can't I think of her name? I don't know, I'm going to just call her Rondi, just kidding Everyone.
Speaker 1:They had a male and a female co-owner creator who seemed like good friends and got along great. They weren't friends until they were working on the business and we won't go into all the details because watch the documentary to see Totally. But it basically was like Katie was saying a makeup company and they were getting pretty big On their own, but everything was affordable, yes, and they had an idea, because they were kind of young and hip and cool. They had an idea to collaborate with Lisa Frank. They were like, how would you know whatever happened to Lisa Frank? How do we get hold of her? They said they just went online and looked up public records so funny. And they just kept calling, calling, calling and then someone answered and the guy was like is this Lisa Frank? Totally what I would do if I called somebody, hello, is this? Yeah, right, but all of that, eventually they did get in contact with her and yeah, go ahead, sorry, and and so like they were thrilled because she seemed interested in collaborating with collaborating and they did a kickstarter, yeah, so she found the kickstarter right and she even was like helping them advertise, like she wrote a letter to like the Kickstarter people.
Speaker 1:But oh, my god, you guys, the products, I, I want them. I, if they, if this would have happened, it would have fucking blown up because they made so much money with that Kickstarter campaign campaign showing the prototypes for these makeup. Basically, it was all these makeup products that they were going to make that were Lisa Frank themed and they were bangers. They were so cute and I was like, how did I miss this? Like, how did I? I don't even I should have wrote down what year. It was Cause I was probably having babies or something. I want to say. It was 2017. Was it that close? Yeah, I think so, because they were getting into, like the people I got to Google it. People wanted it delivered in 2018 is when it was supposed to be delivered, and then that's when like all the troubles.
Speaker 1:So, essentially, they do a Kickstarter, which, yes, so they raise all this money. And what happened was, if you've never used Kickstarter, if you donate money to something new, a new idea, then usually you get something in exchange. So if it's an author, for example, you would get a signed copy of the book. When it's done, stuff like that, yeah, so they had all these different tiers If you pay 20 bucks, you'll get this like lip gloss. If you pay $40, I'm totally paraphrasing you get this makeup bag or whatever. So they raised what is it like? Half a million, was it half a million? I don't know. It was a lot Enough to start manufacturing. Well, and again, this is the makeup side's story, because Lisa Frank didn't come on and tell hers, but they did have a lot of documentation. They did that, they showed, and there's court records with this documentation too.
Speaker 1:Essentially, lisa was excited at first and demanded quarterly payments from them and it was out fucking raging. It started at like $100,000. But then when a year went by, she renewed it for $250,000 every quarter and she was dragging her feet. So in the contract it said she had to approve all the designs. So she kept sending the stuff back so they could never go to manufacturing because she would want that again according to glamour dolls, right to the point. And then, like the girl who was designing like really cute stuff, she eventually told the guy I don't want her on communication anymore, I don't want to deal with her, et cetera. To the point, so they just keep paying her every quarter but nothing's getting manufactured Right. And this goes on Over a year. It was longer than that, it was about a year and a half because they said they made the $250,000 payment when it went up at the beginning of whatever year it was I want to say it's like 2018 or 19. As I want to say it's like 2018 or 19. And then she they got an email from her staff or lawyers or whatever for the second quarter that said she would not communicate with them anymore till they made that payment. Yeah, they made the payment and she broke. She ended the contract fucking crazy. So it's over almost a million dollars that they gave her for nothing. Like, nothing was ever made, nothing happened. And like, and something I thought was interesting that they were talking about she was like your fans are literally begging for you to do this Like I.
Speaker 1:Also, I think Lisa Frank is tone deaf when it comes to that. Like she's not worried about the people who love her company and the work. She's not, she, I don't. I honestly don't think she cares or is listening. Because what if she was? And I don't think she's a very good business woman. Obviously she's greedy, she's not, and that and that could come back to that disorganized, whatever the ideas are there, but tying it to the business component, she just can't get there. Yeah, because I think like if you are smart, you listen to what your consumers want and, hello, she would have made bank. But I think she was pissed because she didn't want somebody like I think this is me. She was pissed because she didn't want somebody like I think this is me, this is Danny's opinion. Everyone, don't sue me, don't cover me. So I think she probably saw like their ideas and thought it was great. But then realize how much money they were going to make, as well as her, and she didn't like it. That's what I think.
Speaker 1:Or, or the control issue, like you said, which is similar to what you're saying. Yeah, I, I mean, I think that's what it comes down. In fact, I wrote that down. Like lisa frank seemed not to work well with anyone. Control issues like a hundred, holy shit, those poor glamour dolls people. She ruined their business, ruined their life, and they were. Then, of course, nothing was ever manufactured. So all the fans come for them. And then lisa frank ink sued them, took it one step further and released a statement basically saying that it was all Glamour Dolls fault, that they didn't live up to any of the things that they were supposed to do. So, of course, everyone believes Lisa Frank, believes her Right, or her company, yeah, and so they've been suing each other back and forth.
Speaker 1:I think it's still going, but I hope that they get something out of it, because I know, and their company went bankrupt Right, which sucks, and they personally have had financial problems. Oh yeah, oh yeah, personally. Like he was saying, he had to move in with a friend for a while. Well, and you can tell, they're very talented designers, business people, whatever. Well, their ideas were amazing and I mean you know, as a business owner and I mean I technically am one too, but not in the same way Katie is but like you put so much of your own money, you have to to get money in return Eventually, you hope Correct and so for them. I can't even can you imagine seeing all this money come in from Kickstarter, people being so excited about your ideas, and then it's all gone. Yeah, it's like not only gone, but now you're in big time red and all of it just went to Lisa Frank for nothing For real.
Speaker 1:Nothing was ever made. They already had some court cases dismissed. They even have had documentation. Nothing was ever made. They already had some court cases dismissed. They even have had documentation. It just goes to show you what wins in this company, I mean this country Money and power and greed always, and the people with the big lawyers, people with people in power and the lawyer budget. Yeah, like take over.
Speaker 1:So that was one group of creators and then Then the one at the end just killed me, killed me, so they go by Amina and then their handles like tassel fairy or something like that because of their hair, uh, which was so fun. It was because of what they, uh, they create tassels as art. Oh, okay, I thought she mentioned, or they mentioned, their hair at one point. Anyway, anyways, either way, it's she has way. I keep saying she. I apologize, they. Sorry, I was like rewinding in my head because Amina did say at the end of her time on the documentary that they preferred to go by and that was toward the end. Yeah, so I'm sorry. So in my notes I kept writing she when I was technically wrong. So I apologize everyone. We, that was toward the end. Yeah, so I'm sorry. So I, in my notes I kept writing she when I was technically wrong. So I apologize everyone, we're fixing that right now. Um, so, yeah, I mean, it was saying that that's where she. Ah crap, I'm doing it again Cause I wrote it. Look, cause you're reading your notes. Yeah, you're reading your notes. Look, that's where she got the guys. This is just proof that we have no professional editing.
Speaker 1:Um, the tassel fairy came about because of the art that amina does. Yes, so amina has this very bright, fun, cool pattern aesthetic and I wouldn't even say it's lisa frank aesthetic. Yeah, it is bright and there were rainbows and stuff, but it was. It was definitely their own Right and, like they said, like Lisa Frank, don't own rainbows, no. Or unicorns or bright colors no, not at all. Whatever. And Amina named their apartment Cloudland Hello, I love that.
Speaker 1:And I wrote if I lived by myself, that is what I would want my living space to look like, like it was so awesome. So it was an apartment. I didn't catch what city they lived in, I didn't either, but it was somewhere relatively urban and so not a huge apartment, but every inch, every space was a different design and I mean I hand painted everything and then would go live uh, not live, but would record and show different parts. And people loved it. And so other people were saying things like oh, I love it, lisa frank, vibe, things like that. And then lisa frank started commenting yeah, well, the official handle, who knows who it was? We love it, or probably may have been her, who knows it could have been, it could have been. And so amina, of course, was very flattered by this. Yeah, like the rest of us, not really knowing much about it. And then, all of a sudden, lisa frank kind of stopped commenting, which, you know, whatever, people don't always comment on everything.
Speaker 1:And then hotelscom announced a partnership with Lisa Frank Inc. Also, how did I miss that? I know I missed it too. I missed it too, what we're so out of it. And they shared all these pictures of it. Was like an apartment you could rent for the night. That was a Lisa Frank apartment and it was across the street from where Amina lived, was it? Did you catch that? I did not. Amina said it was in the building across the street from me Whoa, isn't that nuts? And it looked so much like her apartment. And so Amina posted some side-by-sides Things like the kitchen cabinets and stuff like that, and of course they weren't exactly the same, but you could definitely tell it was yeah, and again. And so people are freaking out this is the coolest thing and we're going to stay there for $200 a night or whatever it was. It was affordable, whatever, like relatively.
Speaker 1:But so, of course, like Amina went on and was doing lives and talking about it and mentioned that there were some people that were like, well, you stole from Lisa Frank and you know how you're always going to get on the Internet, but honestly, when you saw that stuff side by side, it was crazy. And then Lisa Franking took it a step further during 2020, when a lot of people put up the black square on Instagram. She did performative allyship everyone yes which we discussed on our last episode and so Amina called Lisa Frank Inc out in their own videos and basically said you know, how are you going to do that when you literally stole from a black creator? And? And so then of course, lisa Frank comes out with this like ridiculous, vague statement oh, it's unfortunate. This opportunistic individual is da da, da, da da. And it's like no, you're the opportunist individual. You are sitting there saying you stand for black lives matter and for, uh, passing the mic and honoring voices who are unheard, yet you're just stealing from them and not even. And then not only are you stealing from them, you're insulting them and lying about it as well.
Speaker 1:I literally was, so I was already irritated, but then when I saw that it made me so because I remember in 2020, all these companies and I like jumping on the bandwagon here with would I'm not saying it's bad or wrong, but I was I would question all of them and I'd be like let's see where you are. Like, here we are, 2025. Let's see if you're still saying these things Cause. Guess what A lot of companies are not. Well, I just saw this morning um target had had that dei initiative for products yeah, without getting too in the weeds on it, but like a deliberate um approach to yeah, and they've ended it. And I saw a creator who wrote about that because her stuff has been in target and I think think they're like not only just continuing it but like not buying from some of those.
Speaker 1:Well, when you have somebody in power in our country getting rid of diversity and inclusion, everything, then I guess you do too. It's gross. There are some big companies that are pushing back against it. I saw Costco was one, but yeah, but anyway we said we weren't going to get but that was kind of the nail in the coffin for me. Yeah, for real that. I was kind of like, okay, gross.
Speaker 1:Indigenous art yeah, gross. Cultural appropriation Cultural appropriation and making money off someone else's art Correct, even like the James Green slash, other employee stuff Yep. Using their creativity and art of other people yeah, with literally your name stamped on it, yep. And then the Glamour Dolls stuff and then the Tassel Fairy Amina stuff. And then I was like this is too much, this, this is sucks. Like because it's such a happy, cheery, fun brand that makes you feel so good about yourself. But it's sort of like when you know better, you do better, and I'm like thinking to myself at least the way that it stands now, yeah, unless the company sold to someone else and they do things differently, which I don't think is going to happen.
Speaker 1:I thought I remembered, when I did research for our episode, her younger son, forrest. I think you're right, they never said that in this documentary. They didn't. That was weird. Yeah, maybe they don't want to get sued, maybe there's something there that's not allowed to be published, I don't know. But thankfully, as you mentioned earlier in the episode, there's lots of for lack of a better term sort of knockoff things and Lisa Frank doesn't own rainbows or unicorns or whatever, and so we can still enjoy the bright colors and the aesthetic and cute animals and unicorns and rainbows and all the things, but not give our money to that.
Speaker 1:I mean I'm not going to. I know, unless something changes. It's like not going to, I know it's something changes. It's like, um, I don't support Chick-fil-A as a company, but sometimes I go get those waffle fries. Guys Like I can be a hypocrite ally and I will say that I want to admit that and I try really hard not to. I really do. And it's just like Amazon. Like I try not to use Amazon. I really try to support local, but sometimes I got to go on Amazon cause that can't get it anywhere else. It's it's. So I think that, though, this one is pretty easy to not support because she does not, and so is waffle fries. By the way, guys, I'm calling myself on Amazon's the harder one. Keep me accountable here. Um, I also anyway. Um, that's my. Oh no, no, this is what I wanted to say. Speaking of that um hotelscom thing.
Speaker 1:I have had this idea and I'm trademarking it right now, so nobody steal this from me ever since I watched um schitt's creek years ago and they like redid the, the whole motel. Yeah, I have wanted to buy a motel, like like a beachside motel here in Florida somewhere and call it the rainbow connection. Hold on, it's so good, I'm waiting, and each room is like a different color, like you could stay in the red room, or obviously there'd be multiple, but like a little small fun. And not only that, but it would be called the rainbow connection and it would be very inclusive and supportive of LGBTQ events, all the things, but I mean rainbow connection. Every room's different color, and I mean everything in the room is that color. I love that. You have like different textures, different fabrics, but everything is red. Red room it's red. You go in the yellow room, everything's yellow, which would be a little trippy it might be, depending on the color, and then you could have a lobby that's just rainbow, everything, yeah, everything. And then, like you know, the beach, little pool, or, if there's a pool, the furniture Girl I'm going could do it. I don't think so, and there are some beachside motels around here that could use a little makeover.
Speaker 1:If anybody has a lot of money and you're good with business things, I'll come give you ideas. Honestly, yes, danny can do all the things, all the planning, all the marketing, all the stuff, but as far as like actually purchasing the property and the insurance and all that, if, if we can find someone to be a silent partner how about that? Who just wants the money once it starts rolling in? Well, I need somebody to manage the business side of things. I will come and do the painting, the decorating, the fun, the fun things that I'm good at. Oh, you need a business manager. That's it. Yeah, okay, maybe that's your next job years from now. Maybe I'd be'd be okay with that. Yeah, when you retire from all these other jobs, I would just need a pink room that I could go in and just sit sometimes Maybe a pink office. Yeah, that would work. Yeah, anyway, guys, that's neither here nor there. So what else do you have? That's kind of.
Speaker 1:My last sentence was lame ass. Vague statement at the end. That was last sentence. What was the lame? Oh from lisa? Yeah, oh, I know they put it at the end of every episode, but it was essentially.
Speaker 1:Let me see if I can paraphrase uh, thank you to all our wonderful fans and all the enthusiasm for lisa frank inc. During the years. We'll continue to make great products and thanks again, or something like that. Paraphrase something. My paraphrase would be blah, blah, blah bullshit. It was very didn't address anything in the documentary. No, um, didn't say sorry, not that they would specific. Yeah, nothing specific.
Speaker 1:And again, I think she probably missed out on a little bit of an opportunity not being humanized in this. But but I mean, why would she start now? Well, because she probably doesn't think she did anything wrong. Yeah, that's. Do you think that she's gonna watch this or do you think, just like her lawyer, because I think that she doesn't think she's a problem and that she, I think probably one of her things is that it's everybody else, not her, her. But I feel like James Green is that way too. I feel he's the same way. I feel like he's like everybody else is a problem. I agree, I think she's the same way. I just feel like and I mean, not everyone is very self-aware I'm sure I'm not very often Me either but how could? How could she?
Speaker 1:Let's say she watched it. Let's say she watched it. Let's say she watched it from beginning to end, could she? How could a person watch that and not see the problematic things they've done? Well, it's possible. If you have untreated mental health stuff, I do think it's possible. And also, she also knows beyond what we're seeing, yeah, which, again, we don't know her side.
Speaker 1:So maybe as soon as she would see someone saying something about the toxic workplace, she, she would automatically go to oh, but they didn't talk about this, this or this and all the charity work I did, or you know like Right. So maybe she'd immediately go to that defensive position. Well, that's exactly what I was going to say If you are someone, for whatever reason, has a victim mentality, you will always find a reason to put it off of you. Mm, hmm, a hundred percent, you will always find a reason to put it off of you 100. So, yeah, anyway, well, it was kind of a bummer.
Speaker 1:It was very interesting though it was. It was, it was eye-opening. It was eye-opening. It definitely brought up a lot. Yes, the nostalgia aspect, and you know, when we revisit nostalgia, we see problems a lot. Oh yeah, uh, capitalism for sure, um, just this idea of independent art and how it can really be appropriated for other things, family dynamics, just everything. It was all in one. Oh, anyway, all right.
Speaker 1:So we're at the end of our episode. There's something new we're gonna to start doing. Oh yeah, um, let me tell you about that real quick, and then we're going to end our episode. Do we quickly want to talk about the thing I said to stick around for? Maybe we should talk about oh well, how long have we been chatting? We've been chatting a long time. Let's hour 20, five, five minutes or less before we do the final thing. So, all right, just because I said at the top we would, you did, you're right, good job, good job remembering. I remembered, um, I'm like, let's do our last fun thing, okay.
Speaker 1:So, katie and I, when we went to pod fest um, we did not go to any of like the after parties or whatever we did we had wine over dinner at six o'clock, at six o'clock, while we and we met some people there while we were doing that. But we went up to our room and I said, katie, there's this movie that I am dying to watch and I feel like I need to watch it with, like a friend, like another woman, like not my husband. It's called the Substance. It's with Demi Moore. It's a horror film but it has social commentary and it also has comedy as dark comedy. Definitely, oh my god, y'all need to go watch it now.
Speaker 1:It was great, it was so good, it was so powerful. The acting chef's kiss, yeah, the from everyone. Cinematography, so great, the special effects. All I'm gonna say is blood hose. We were so here for it. We.
Speaker 1:I was laughing, not because I thought it was funny, it was a little funny. The people getting sprayed don't say it was a little funny, but it was more. Just like I'd never seen anything like that before and I didn't know how to act as a viewer. I think think that's what they wanted. Yeah, it was such genius filmmaking on so many levels and I absolutely adore that it's getting recognized, because horror films hardly ever get recognized for award stuff. Yeah, and it's fascinating and wonderful. And, guys, we'll have more to say about it. Yeah, we will. And Demi Moore already won the Golden Globe for Best Actress and was just nominated for Best Actress for an Oscar. So we'll see what happens. Was the director nominated? I really hope so. Yeah, I believe so, but it was just so good. Ah, go watch it. Go watch it.
Speaker 1:And we had fun watching it. We did, and I'm so. It was funny, though, the way we had to watch it, because we thought we'd be able to just rent it on the hotel TV, which we couldn't, and then I was like, oh wait, I can like mirror cast it from my laptop. We couldn't. So we ended up being in the bed next to each other with the laptop on a pillow, scooted closely so I can hear it and hear eating our popcorn and drinking our wine and M&M. Well, we weren't drinking M&M's, we were eating the M&M's, eating the popcorn, drinking wine, with this little laptop screen watching it. So, anyway, it was great, we made it work. It was like once we said we were going to watch it, we were going to make it happen. We were like the TV didn't work, the mirror didn't work. About watching it didn't work. We were just like we're just gonna watch it on the laptop. We're making not fall asleep. I didn't. That was weird. That was, it was way past your bedtime, way, and she had been up a really long time. Yeah, weird. It was great, though. Okay, all right.
Speaker 1:So tell everyone what we're gonna do at the end end of every episode, end of every episode instead of us trying to come up with quippy little sentences that we usually fail at greatly. We are going to do trivia questions, because we know you guys love trivia. We're going to do I have an 80s one. All right, I think we should do one of each decade. Okay, so I'm going to pick 80s today. You do 90s. We have our nice little game. We have the hell of 90s game, and then I bought the um, the 80s one that goes along with it called like totally 80s. All right, you ready, I'm ready. Okay, so I'm going to pull one from 80s and Katie is going to pull one from 90s. Make sure you pull it from where it says draw card here, so Troy can continue to be proud. I've got it All right, katie.
Speaker 1:What pop star does this belong to? I'm going to explain it to you guys. It is a? Um. It looks like a giant belt buckle that says boy toy. Is it George Michael, considering he lived in the closet a long time? Oh, uh, no, I think it's Madonna, am I right? Yeah, it's Madonna. Oh, and is it a belt buckle? Yeah, she had a belt buckle. Show YouTube really quick. Okay, can you see it? I guess I didn't know I did. Yay me, all right. All right, mine also has an illustration, so I'm going to describe it before you answer, for the people listening. I love that you said George Michael. I like that you said George Michael. Why is that? Poor George Michael? Didn't people call him that? I'm sure they did, but I don't think he wore a belt buckle, maybe just in my circles. Okay, in the 90s. So don't guess until I describe what it is.
Speaker 1:What phrase would accompany this dismissive gesture? And it's a woman with her head turned to the side and her hand up facing out. Talk to the head, talk. Oh, it's the wrong way. Yep, wait, oh, it's from the other side. There we go. I was doing it right.
Speaker 1:Talk to the hand. And what's the second part of that phrase? Talk to the hand. There's a second part. No, talk to the hand because the face don't understand. Oh, I was going to say, because the face don't listen. Yeah, what is it? What is it properly? Talk to the hand because the face don't understand. Oh, I was going to say, because the face don't listen. Yeah, what is it? What is it properly? Talk to the hand because the face don't understand. I don't think I ever knew that. Yeah, well, you got to start saying it Just this week. So, boy, toy belt buckles and talk to the hand. Oh, my God, but what if George Michael did have a belt buckle? That gonna look it up, but madonna had one. I'm probably wrong, but you never know, I know, okay. Well, anyway, thanks for listening, guys, and it was a long one. Hopefully you, even if you had to listen to a few sessions. Uh, thanks for listening and make sure you tune in for our dawson's creek listen, re-listen and our bonus episodes over on patreon. We'll see you next time. Bye.
