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Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast
Xennial co-hosts Dani and Katie talk about their analog childhoods, digital adulthoods and everything in between.
Generation In-Between: A Xennial Podcast
David Bowie Fandom: A Labyrinth Revisit
Did your trust issues stem from a puppet named Hoggle?
Is your favorite character from Labyrinth actually a cod piece?
If you still rock out to Magic Dance with the real ones, you might be a Xennial Labyrinth fan. And our special guest, Jamila Talbot, is too.
Join us as we traverse back to the 1986 Jim Henson classic, Labyrinth, with our special Zoom guest, Jamila.
The episode was made possible by the following source:
Labyrinth on Amazon Prime
Labyrinth on IMBD
Labyrinth Wiki Fandom
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Did you ever wish that a Goblin King with spectacular eye makeup would come and take your screaming baby brother away?
Dani Combs:Did you ever? Wish for your own labyrinth quest to conquer, complete with riddles, fantastical creatures and a bog of eternal stench, If you like your 80s movies, set to the tone of a rock opera, and Jim Henson's cool yet kind of creepy puppet creations. You might be a Xeniel and you might be a Labyrinth fan, and we are too, hi everyone.
Katie Parsons:I'm Dani and I'm Katie, and you're listening to Generation In Between, a Xeniel podcast where we remember, revisit and sometimes relearn all kinds of things from our 80s childhoods and 90s teen young adulthoods.
Dani Combs:And today we are going to be talking about a cult classic y'all, the movie Labyrinth, starring David Bowie himself and Jennifer Connelly a very young Jennifer Connelly. And we have a special guest and Labyrinth superfan to join us today in this discussion, and it is my friend, jamila Talbert.
Jamila Talbot:Hello everyone, hello, hello Thank you for having me on. I am so excited. I'm like I'm like being chill right now, but I'm very excited.
Dani Combs:I love this so much so I'm going to full stop before we go any farther. Be honest with our listeners. So everybody knows we have sound gremlins. Katie and I also have learned things the hard way with this podcast. We have to just screw stuff up a bunch and then we're like oh yeah, that didn't work. So we already recorded an amazing episode with Jamila. That was like an hour and a half long, two hours, including the after show. We had this great discussion of of labyrinth and then we realized in the playback the sound was shit yep, good, good job getting the censoring done early on this one.
Katie Parsons:We'll put the big. You know I'm just kidding, yeah, I mean. Yeah, you could hear we might pull things from it for social if it's things we don't discuss again today or like really fun little conversations. But Jamila is so awesome. We were just like you all are used to us sounding kind of terrible from time to time, but we didn't want to do that to her. So we're back and we're going to talk to her again today.
Dani Combs:We are so this is take two, and hopefully we will. So Jamila and I have been friends for a while and we'll talk about that in a minute, so we got all of our like catching up out of our system with that episode. So hopefully we'll talk more focused. But I don't know. Jamila is a kindred spirit to us and, as we all like on generation between, we like to go down rabbit holes of discussion. She does as well. So, above all else, we're going to have a good time. On the second Try to take two, are we recording? By the way, did you hit record? Okay, great, great, just make it sure that would suck if we went through this again and then we were like we didn't record, okay, so anyway, so let me tell y'all a little bit. Oh look, this is the one I'd have without her bio where'd it go?
Katie Parsons:oh, oh, my gosh, I should be able to find it okay why don't? You say hello. While I look up your official bio, tell us who you are hello, I am a zennial.
Jamila Talbot:I was born in 1980, so I am like really really very, very, very zennial.
Jamila Talbot:I do remember life prior to the internet, so that's cool. I do want to say, while you're looking that up, that I told you, guys, I was going to make a hardcore like 80s, 90s reference. So, guys, I'm fucking old, um, I'm in my 40s and uh, just so you know, and we talked about this last time your body just begins to break down indiscriminately. Um, like at 40, I think I was in the hospital for the first time at 39. Anyway, so today I'm in the middle of a procedure which is called a capsule procedure, where they have you swallow a capsule that's blinking and then it like takes pictures of your digestive system. What, yes, yes, so I have on this whole like set. It's, it's amazing. I have to watch this blue blinking light. It's great.
Dani Combs:Oh my god, so you're doing this while you're recording a podcast episode. References from me today.
Jamila Talbot:I like cause it looks like a little submarine, a little blinky light submarine, and I was like, oh, these kids are going to get a good one today. Like I hope everybody signed their permission slips and I really wanted to share that with the nurse who gave me the capsule but she, uh, did not look like the kind of person who would enjoy my jokes. She's not old enough, Okay.
Dani Combs:For those of y'all that don't understand her reference, that is magic school bus. Okay, magic school bus, and I remember that where they go in the body, like that was a favorite episode in my house.
Katie Parsons:I don't know, but okay, I found your bio, this is going well, so now I'm going to tell y'all the official info about Jamila.
Dani Combs:So Jamila is the owner of Mama Loves Herbs, a company that encourages everyone to heal through sound, good vibes, herbal remedies, self-care and loving community. She is an herbalist, a sound healer, a doula, mother of five, a wife of one and a writer. She is mostly lawful, good, but sometimes chaotic evil, same same, and as an 80s baby she has a deep love of Jim Henson in most of the Muppet movies, which probably accounts for the chaotic evil.
Jamila Talbot:Yeah, yes, now y'all can see why we have her on here.
Dani Combs:Come on.
Katie Parsons:I mean we had a Miss Frizzle reference in the first, like two minutes.
Katie Parsons:So we're doing pretty good. We're doing pretty good so far. And the last time we recorded was the first time I had met Jamila. So I can't like fake it and be like oh nice to meet you, but I will say we're newer friends. But and of the three of us which we're going to get into the labyrinth here in a minute, I was the only one who had never seen it until I watched it for this recording. So I think that's kind of good to know, going into this, because you all I think you have done a great job kind of saying this is how I felt as a kid and then also this is how I feel as an adult. But like I'm just like this is how I feel watching this movie for the first time at 42 years old. So you're going to get all sorts of perspective here today on Labyrinth.
Dani Combs:Yeah. So, before we go any further, we waited too long in the last time we recorded to do this. So, jamila, since you are our designated super fan today for those who may not know the movie Labyrinth or who have not seen the movie Labyrinth, can you share with us in your own words what this movie is about?
Jamila Talbot:I sure can. So this movie is about a little girl. Well, she's not a little girl, she's like a tween named Sarah, and Sarah is a horrible and a wildly unlikable character, but we'll get into that later. She is called home from her adventures to babysit her baby brother, who is her half brother because it's between her father and her stepmother, and that causes all kinds of drama for her. She is horrible to the baby and when the baby cries, like babies do, because there's a thunderstorm outside, she says that she wishes that the Goblin King would come take her baby brother away and thus starts the Wizard of Oz-esque adventure.
Jamila Talbot:Only if Wizard of Oz was super queer and made by strange people. So she goes on this adventure into the labyrinth, listens to no one, gets more confused than she needed to get, kind of gets together with this motley crew of incredibly likable characters even Hoggle, and we'll get to that in a second and she ends up at the very end, um, saving her brother from the Goblin King. Um, and you know it's a, it's a happily ever after. Um, the David, the, the Goblin King, is played by Dave Bowie, who was literally the best thing in the entire movie. And why the movie works. Yes, because he's David Bowie.
Dani Combs:Because he's so, david Bowie as the Goblin King.
Jamila Talbot:Yeah, like when I say he's David Bowie, I mean he's not acting, no, he's just being David Bowie. Yes, and if you like David Bowie, like this movie is, and puppets, this movie is for you.
Dani Combs:And the puppets. I love me some Jim Henson puppets and we will get into that in a little bit. Okay, I'm gonna tell you, watch your blankie, because it is, it is getting on your mic, yeah is it Okay?
Jamila Talbot:Yeah, guys, I'm wrapped up in a blanket, yeah.
Dani Combs:Sorry, everybody's probably like what. What does that mean?
Jamila Talbot:Yeah, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to give some context here.
Katie Parsons:They probably would have thought that you were just telling me Katie, watch your blankie.
Dani Combs:Yeah, sorry, jamila has on this amazing soft blanket. We're on zoom, not an in-person guest, so this is our first time ever doing a zoom guest episode. So, yay, um, anyway. So just watch your blankie, because it can't, we don't, we don't want to mess up.
Katie Parsons:Good advice for you to watch your blank, watch your blankets, okay, okay.
Dani Combs:So now that we have a little background on what the movie is about, um, before we get into jamila and her superfanness katie, we need to know then. So this was the first time you've watched it. Yes, obviously I love the movie. We know I like weird 80s movies. I like puppets. I like fantasy.
Katie Parsons:That's not your jam, it's not um, even when you said wizard of oz, I remember being a kid and not really enjoying that movie either. I like the music from it. I like the stage version of Wizard of Oz, not the movie so much, and I love Judy Garland, but anyway, neither here nor there the topic area is not my favorite. I thought it was weird. I mean it was entertaining in the way that, like I did feel like it was such a time time capsule, knowing how big Jim Henson's puppets were at that time and like the influence of those. I did not like the music. I was like, what is this music? I did like David Bowie and Jennifer Connelly.
Katie Parsons:Who's the the team, the terrible teenager. I mean she was very unlikable, but she's also a good actress. So I was like, yeah, I don't like her. I think that's the point. Yeah, and the pup. I mean I will say the puppets were incredibly well made, oh my gosh. And like the detail level, which I know we're going to talk about a little more. But I mean I probably won't watch it again, but I'm glad I did. To come to this discussion, is that okay to say?
Jamila Talbot:that was. That was me sad gasping, just in case anybody didn't know. But that that was me sad gasping. Uh, about Katie not wanting to watch it again but that's fine you know what? That's fine. You're allowed to be wrong, everybody's allowed to be wrong.
Katie Parsons:So that's fine, I get one. I get one, is my one.
Dani Combs:Well, you know it's so funny because Katie, Katie and I we have had lots of episodes where we revisit things that I still love so much, like cartoon. Like Katie's not a big cartoon person, I still love cartoons and we mentioned this when we talked to you last time. I did this whole forgotten cartoons of the 80s and 90s. So we talked about Snorks. Do you remember Snorks? Yes, yes.
Dani Combs:I do Katie looked at me like what the hell is this? And I'm like it's so weird and dumb. That's why I love it, the weirder and the more ridiculous. Which is what the 80s were, let's be real. Yeah, completely, and that's why I like David Bowie. He's so extra he is. He just is this entity of weird and you don't really know what category to put him in for anything like which is and I love that.
Dani Combs:Right, that's the point. Yeah, I love that. I just I love that. Okay, so tell us, jamila, what is your memory memory of when you first saw this movie back in the day?
Jamila Talbot:Okay, so I had to have been maybe six or seven when I watched this movie for the first time. And, just for extra context, like my family I was was. I grew up on Jim Henson, everything, so this was like naturally part of that, and I remember first of all being fascinated by a man in eye makeup and like David Bowie's whole situation was just captivating for me. Um, it was like I just I was, I was confused at parts and like, but I loved it. And then just the, the, the whole world that they pull you into into the movie. I was there for it. Um, I also remember being scared in some parts of it because it was so vivid and so well done and so odd.
Jamila Talbot:I didn't talk about this last time, but when they go into the oubliette because this is how much of a super fan I am when they go into the oubliette and Jareth throws the ball and it becomes this like, oh, I can't remember what it's called, but it's like the spinning machine, yeah, yeah, and it takes up the entire like hallway and it's just menacing. I remember being terrified of that, but strangely not scared of Jareth, right, yeah, like he did some, like messed up things and also stole a baby. But like that didn't, for some reason. I just I was like you know, but he looks like he'd be fun.
Katie Parsons:I don't know.
Jamila Talbot:I don't know, I don't know. So that I think for me, being a kid, it sort of made me really love fantasy and love like the escapism even though I could never have articulated it of course back then the escapism of the world that Jim Henson was known for building. Yeah, I went, I was like all in, I was all in.
Dani Combs:So I don't remember when I watched this for the first time as a kid, because I too grew up on Jim Henson, like we like Fraggle Rock and all the Muppet movies. We watched the Muppet show like and I have an older sister, so like I remember watching it always. I just always remember Jim Henson being part of my childhood, always. I just always remember Jim Henson being part of my childhood, right, I don't remember the first time I watched labyrinth, but when I rewatched it as an adult. My husband has never seen it, my kids have never seen it.
Dani Combs:Well, caden didn't watch it with us Cause that's not his jam. He's like you, katie, he doesn't like enjoy that mess. So, um, but Cooper was like this is kind of scary. How come all this stuff from the eighties is scary? And I'm like it really was.
Dani Combs:Like you know, we had labyrinth, we have the dark crystal, we had, um, never ending story, hello, traumatic, when the horse dies, what was his name? The kid? The kid's name was a tray. What was the heart tax? And then like the nothing.
Dani Combs:I mean we're going to do a whole episode on never ending story because, like, let's talk about all the metaphors in that movie. But I think watching it as an adult and we talked about this before the things that I noticed were hilarious, because I don't think as a kid I would have picked up on the same things. But I'm with you, I think why I liked Jim Henson so much is it was fantasy and it was like this whole other world. But he didn't do it in like a cutesy way, like he made puppets that were magical and awesome and intricate, and some were cute, but he made sure he had stuff that was like weird and different and even kind of scary and I don't know, for some reason, as a kid I just I really liked it and I I liked how weird it was, but I don't think I knew that Like I don't think I could have articulated that either.
Jamila Talbot:Weird it was, but I don't think I knew that, like I don't think I could have articulated that either, but yeah, well, it was like we were submerged in scary things in the 80s.
Jamila Talbot:um, I'm not gonna say that like and I'm gonna make this comparison. I'm gonna say that I don't think that the 80s shows and or children's cinema was smarter than children's cinema now, but I am going to say that it was far less like like it. It treated us as like we were far less sensitive than I think kids are treated now, although we are starting to arc into what I call the shadow work, narrative of of children's movies, where they're just addressing these deep emotional like layers and traumas that like we didn't even. We just created trauma in the 80s, right, um, and kids could handle it like we were.
Jamila Talbot:Like the world is terrible and there are villains and monsters everywhere and y'all are just gonna have to be exceptional to like, make it through, and you, you might die or your friends might die, it's fine, it's fine, you'll get through it, whereas now we're like, oh, your grandma is the source of your trauma and it's generational and you're going to need some therapy because your uncle's been living in the walls for yeah, y'all know what movie I'm talking about Because your uncle's been living in the walls for years. I'm not going to say like one is better or worse. I am going to say that I feel like in the 80s we had a great esteem for kids capacity for imagination and capacity for trauma and for darkness, and how much we enjoyed it. Yeah, it, yeah, um, and I, I just feel like we didn't.
Katie Parsons:we enjoyed being scared and we didn't realize how like iffy that was until we, until we were adults looking back on it yeah, well, we, we recorded last week our scary stories to tell in the dark episode and kind of had a conversation around that, around how you know the book banners and all of that which you know. Totally other episode go listen to it if you haven't yet. But this idea that, like kids, it's sometimes nice to put a face on the things they're feeling, even if it's a scary face. So, even if it's the unknown or trauma or fear or like morbidity, right, like kids do think about these things.
Katie Parsons:And I think when you were just talking about the capacity, the word patronizing kind of came to mind that like I don't know either time will tell like if we're patronizing too much in some of our children's literature and our children's television and our children's films, um, and streaming and all those things, but like we weren't really doing that back then it was like, yeah, you can handle it and maybe maybe we were scared, but like it was still kind of handing it to us to figure out, as opposed to now where it's like just a little more mild or delivered a little more patronizing way, like we need to help kids process this instead of like here, process this. You know, I don't I don't know.
Jamila Talbot:I think there's arguments on both sides as, as a parent of five humans Like I, I'm on, I'm on both sides of it. I I would, as when you guys were talking about never ending story, and I think I may have told this episode, this story, before, but, uh, I remember watching that with my kid and like being worried that the R attacks thing was going to hit her the same way that it hit me, um, in my, as my little kid self, like I was like bracing for, like oh, we might have to pause the movie and let her cry it out because she's way more sensitive than I remember this is the really important part of it. She's way more sensitive than I remember being back then. Right, not that I wasn't, but you know, I was like seven, you know, but we watched it and she was, she was like five or six, maybe six, and she's like watching with this, like look on her face you know when your kids get the look and I looked over at her and the whole R-Talk scene plays out and I am like waiting for this fallout and she looks at me with her sweet, sweet face, like right into my eyeballs and she's like what does a horse have to be sad about.
Jamila Talbot:Oh and for context, never ending story, the horse. I don't want to spoil it, but, like spoiler alert, the horse sinks into the bog of sadness, where, if you're sad, right, you go down into this bog and this kid loses his horse to sadness. And my daughter was like, what does a horse have to be sad about? And I was like, oh shit, wow, wow, I'm because me, me like little kid, me was like all into it. I didn't even think about why does a horse need to be sad.
Dani Combs:I was just like no, I know. I mean, I honestly, until you said that just now, never have thought that. I've always just been so upset that he died because he was sad, like, yeah, correct, what does he have to be freaking sad about? What does?
Jamila Talbot:he have to be like the kid has a lot to be sad about. Atreyu was like living his like trauma.
Jamila Talbot:But so I think, I think that you know we we have this tendency generationally to to want to like gild the lily about our personal generational experience yeah but I think, while we did go through I definitely think we went through a period of time late 90s, early aughts where we were patronizing children, where we were like not handling anything it was. It actually became this sort of frenetic, frantic sort of cartoons and things that were just about like entertaining. But I think we're now moving into this idea that kids are a lot smarter than we gave them credit for Um and can and but we also want these kids to heal backwards, into like ourness and to speak into our brokenness and not carry it forward. But also, I think where the 80s nailed it was it was like these kids can handle it. They can handle these deep stories. They can handle, you know, men who are just on the edge of being in drag. They can handle these darker themes.
Jamila Talbot:And kids like to be some. Kids like to be scared. Kids like to feel feelings because we're not they're not processing things on that deeper level, they're just seeing what's in front of them. So having these little pockets of fear and these high highs and low lows, it actually triggers something in them and is entertaining on its own level. Now, do I think the 80s took it too far? You know, I've met a lot of 80s babies and we are kind of and I'm justs babies and we are kind of and I'm just gonna say we are kind of a mess kind of a mess, yes, so maybe, um, and maybe that's why we dissociate as a culture so much but like also yeah, super great it was, it was great yeah, but also okay.
Dani Combs:So we we're going deep early today. I love it. We are much, um okay. So before we get going on anything else, let's do two things. Are we ready? We're gonna share everybody is gonna share, um, their favorite, some of their favorite things about labyrinth, and then some of the things you do not like, so. So Jamila is going to start because she's the super fan, so tell us some of your favorite things about Labyrinth. I mean, you've already said some, but you know yes, because there's a lot you know.
Jamila Talbot:I've already talked about David Bowie and I just want to give some additional things on that. David Bowie was unapologetically David Bowie. Some additional things on that. David Bowie was unapologetically David Bowie and I loved that. He took Jareth and made him a little queer and a lot strange and a little sinister, without being over the top terrifying, and had this like way of making him sinister but playful, which is very, very difficult to do and not everyone can get it right. Tom Hiddleston comes to mind with Loki like that.
Dani Combs:Like I'm in love with him.
Jamila Talbot:Why do I like you? But also, you're just objectively like terrible Loki would totally steal a baby, anyway. So that's one of the things I liked. I love the artistry of the movie and the practical special effects and this is me speaking from my adult self, because it's just beautiful, like objectively, if you look at how they put that movie together, knowing that this was not CGI, these were people spending hours and hours and hours putting little hairs on, you know, on these, oh my gosh, these goblins, and constructing entire sets and worlds and buildings. Um, and this stuff was, this stuff was done by hand. Um, it's and it's gorgeous. So really, the, the immersiveness of the movie, um, I just I adore it, even now, like watching, like there's some things that I'm like, ah, this is like dated, but just a lot of the, the artistry of it has held up yeah um, over time, um, and then, uh, the, the little motley crew of characters.
Jamila Talbot:I like them. I like um hoggle, and I like, like he's just despicable, but I like him. And um, sir minimus, uh, it just I don't know. They're minimus and the throwback to the dog and like there are just so many things in that movie, but those are my particular faves. Okay, okay, I'm gonna stop there because I agree.
Dani Combs:I agree with you on the artistry. I, that is one of my favorite things about Jim Henson as a whole was his creative vision and his ability to execute his vision is just, it does withstand the test of time because, like you were saying, everything was made by hand, all the puppets, I mean, and the detail like Troy and I were sitting there watching it and we're like God the detail of every. And there were lots of puppets, there were so many. And, like you were just saying, like every little hair, every eyeball, every you know facial expression, that that was his visionary, like his vision.
Katie Parsons:And she just stopped and stared at me I love y'all.
Dani Combs:You know listeners know this because I've mentioned it plenty of times I love me a synthesizer and if you like a synthesizer. It is in labyrineverance, and I also love David Bowie that song I forgot the name of the song about where he's throwing the baby around to the goblins.
Jamila Talbot:Yeah, dance baby dance, yes, I'm sorry, magic dance.
Katie Parsons:Magic dance. I freaking love that song. I was going to say magic baby, but yeah, something with dancing and magic and a baby Come on.
Jamila Talbot:I feel like we got all of the different like arrangements of that, so that's.
Katie Parsons:I all the remixes.
Dani Combs:I love it, I know it's so I just I listen I'm not trying to say it like it's like award-winning music, whatever, actually maybe it is to me, but I I love it. I love the music, I love the puppets, um, and I I do love David Bowie. We didn't address his codpiece yet how did we make it this far? Oh, my God, we've gotten pretty far. Without that, we'll get there.
Katie Parsons:So explain Because if it's our younger folks. They may not even know what that is.
Jamila Talbot:Well, they should he wears?
Dani Combs:a giant codpiece in his outfit, under his tights. I don't know.
Jamila Talbot:I just want to say I just got to break in and say that was wildly unnecessary. It did not need to be there. It was totally intentional, though. He could have just had his leggings and they could have done a little tuck and that would have like it. It would have been a non-issue, but they sat. I just like to think about the fact that these people sat in a room together. I know they were like you know what this needs, giant cod piece. That's because it's so obnoxiously obvious. I want to know.
Dani Combs:I want to know who it was that made that decision, though, like probably David Bowie, you know, in private he was like I will do it under one condition inappropriate codpiece, uh, hair makeup, uh, you know.
Jamila Talbot:Queer facing all of this, and then, uh, hyper masculinity. So it is, it is, it is like it's like a mullet right, so it's like drag on the top hyper masculinity at the bottom. That's such a great way to explain it.
Katie Parsons:It is. I know that's exactly it.
Dani Combs:There's something for everyone. I'm just saying, just saying a little something. But also, when we watched this, cooper, my 12 year old, the second Gareth came on screen. He got his face goes all crazy. He looks at me. He's like why are his pants like that?
Katie Parsons:Just why? Why is what we want to know? Why, Sometimes?
Dani Combs:people don't ask questions, but he was just like what, like why? I'm like I I don't know, and Troy was like I'm like I don't know and Troy was like it's a little much, you think. Oh my God, because you can't help but gawk at it Like you cannot. It's like in spandex right there. Yeah, oh, I know You're supposed to gawk at it.
Katie Parsons:I know, let's be clear.
Jamila Talbot:It's hilarious. That was for us ladies, okay, that was for us ladies. Okay, that was for the gays and the bays, who just need a little spice in their life. That was it.
Dani Combs:That's it All right. So that's some of what we like. I know you weren't a very big fan.
Katie Parsons:So like I agree on the detailed puppets and worlds, like the aesthetic of the movie for me was really good, like even between the real world and the fantasy world I felt like there was cohesion there. I think like it was really smart to like use the premise of a thunderstorm to like get into it. I thought that that was like great, like the cinematography and all those things. Like it made it just easier on the eye to watch and, yeah, very detailed. And when you do, like you guys said already, when you think about this is not cgi, like I think you said, there was maybe a little bit like the wall with that you go through, or whatever.
Katie Parsons:Yeah, yeah, but, like generally speaking, the walls were walls yeah, and the rooms were actual rooms and you know.
Katie Parsons:So I just. And the puppets were puppets, they weren't computer animated things just put on the screen. Later the real life actors were interacting with these puppets. I just think watching a movie like that, when you kind of think about it while you're watching it, is very impressive and very cool. I spoke about this the first time we recorded.
Katie Parsons:I did like I know she was unlikable, but the main girl, sarah, I liked that. She kind of took this adventure on her own, of her own doing, I might add, and didn't necessarily need to be rescued. She did have some help along the way and then help she didn't take and made bad choices as she went. But to me that was just so much more interesting than someone going out on a hero's quest who's kind of like already a hero, you know. Like she was kind of trying to fix something she messed up and then even at the end she didn't have a huge character arc where she changed. And I liked that from an entertainment perspective because it was like, yeah, this feels real, you know, and so I enjoyed, I enjoyed watching her character in it. I don't know, those are the main things I liked. I didn't mention music, I know, but I do. I and david bowie is like a default. Like I loved david bowie, loved him in this movie.
Dani Combs:Okay yeah, I mean he's great entertaining he is, whether you like music or not. Amanda the light.
Katie Parsons:Generally, I like his music. Yeah, I just didn't like the music in this movie but, like, I like David Bowie as a musician.
Jamila Talbot:I'm going to take a moment to repeat something that we said last, that we talked about last time. That I think is really important. Objectively, okay, and I know this is going to hurt some feelings, I'm just going to say it. Objectively okay, and I know this is gonna hurt some feelings, I'm just gonna say it Objectively. The music of Labyrinth is not great. It is a time capsule. Okay, it was great within the context of the time that it was put out into the world. It is great now from a point of nostalgia Like it gives you. If you heard Magic Dance when you were a little kid, it was a bop and now, as an adult, you're like this song is a banger. Don't tell me anything else. Anything else Okay, but I think in the context of you know, 20, 2024 music, it's it's hokey and it's a little.
Dani Combs:It's very, very dated and it's kind of silly.
Jamila Talbot:It's campy and cheesy which I love, but I think it's important when we're grading music. You know, some music is timeless, of course, but, um, I think, when you, there's also some great value to music being a time capsule, yeah, and and being nostalgic. But we also need to be honest about, like, what this is. I'm not going to get into a fistfight with somebody who's like magic dance, sucked. I'm going to be like, yeah, probably, but I love it because you know, this movie is part of the fabric of who I am as a person. Also, I like that I can go into a crowd of 80s children and say you remind me of a babe, and we can be on it for like five, 10 minutes because someone is going to say what babe? And just on and on and on. I like that.
Dani Combs:I'm doing that one day. I'm just going to go into it now. It's going to be crickets, katie, if nobody answers me.
Jamila Talbot:No, no, no. Just do it on Facebook. Just do it on Facebook Every once in a while, every year or so, I will. Just that's my Facebook status. Is you remind me of a babe? Oh, I love it. No picture, no tags, and just let I just let the magic work. You know, it's a whole spell.
Dani Combs:That's our next podcast reel. That would be. That's it. That's actually a good idea. Just going to say it and see who answers us. We really suck at our TikTok, so maybe, maybe that'll bring in the people.
Katie Parsons:This might be the breakthrough that we've been looking for.
Dani Combs:Trying, yeah, okay, so now that we talked about things we liked. Let's get into the things about this movie we did not like.
Katie Parsons:Um and katie, you can't spend too long, I say let's go backward this time. That way we end end with Jamila. Yeah, okay, okay. So I already kind of said I didn't love the music. I don't know. I just found it again. I'm watching it for the first time. Yeah, in 2024. Just kind of too dated for me. Slow in some parts, like I had trouble like staying engaged. Yes, she fell asleep, oh yeah.
Katie Parsons:Like well, no, um, yes, she fell asleep. Oh yeah, like well, no, well, that's probably not the movie's fault. So in my studio I have this really nice lobby, and I can say that because my in-laws donated some furniture. It's beautiful out there now and we have a tv and so when families are waiting for their kids they can just chillax. So i'm'm like you know what, nobody's here, I'm going to watch it in my lobby, because she also has five kids. So, yes, busy house.
Katie Parsons:So I had my snacks, we had worked out yeah and recorded and you worked your other job and I work my other job like super early, so it's like one o'clock in the afternoon at this point, noon or one.
Dani Combs:I don, but I've been up since like four, three or four.
Katie Parsons:So I get my snacks, my blankie. I'm all by myself. It's raining outside. I start watching it. Sure enough, I fell asleep, woke up, rewound to where I was, fell asleep. Eventually I made it through um. So but that I don't think was the movie's fault. Maybe that's why it felt slow, because it took me six hours to watch it. Legit, it was a slog, yeah, yeah, it was a lot um, but yeah, I mean, those are the main. I wouldn't say like, don't like it. I just would say, like I said, I probably wouldn't watch it again for those reasons yeah, I did not.
Dani Combs:I know you like the main character, sarah, I did not stand her. She was on my nerves, she was mean I could not. Sitting there at Cooper even and we'll talk about the whole David Bowie thing in a second but Cooper was like wow, when she walks in and she's screaming at her baby brother to stop crying and all this stuff, and I'm like dang and I don't even like babies, Okay, but I don't scream at them Like oh well, I have to put the mic with my face, there you go.
Katie Parsons:That's what you get for saying you don't like babies Like.
Dani Combs:I just anyways. So I thought she was mean, she was annoying, she didn't listen when people trying to help her, she was stubborn, and then at the end I don't feel like she really learned much. Oh, I don't really love her. I loved that I also, and we're going to talk about this a little more.
Dani Combs:I did not like that little scene with her and David Bowie, even though it was like her dream sequence, fantasy sequence, where it has that weird sense of are they like, attracted, is he like? Because even cooper like they were doing their slow dance in this sequence and if y'all seen the movie, you know what I'm talking about and cooper looked at me and he goes isn't that pedophilia? But also I mean like I laugh. But then I was like I'm like well, and so then Troy's like well, kinda, but not really, cause it's not, that's not what's happening. So it was just to me, I it was awkward, I just didn't think. I felt like it just didn't need to be there. And I know Jamila, we'll talk about it in a second too, about it's. And I know jamila will talk about it in a second too, about it's. It's her fantasy and it's not supposed to be reality. I just, it just gave me the hebes and I didn't like it.
Katie Parsons:Well yeah, seeing like a grown man with a enlarged cod peeve dancing what we've been told, is a teenage girl alone in his kingdom.
Dani Combs:Right is troubling and I know it was like her fantasy sequence while she was underneath under those drugs or whatever that's such a she was in the um, yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, we just may as well like address it now in it like I before I had asked this question of like is, is it problematic?
Jamila Talbot:is the relationship between jareth and um sarah problematic? Because I actually, the last time I went to watch the movie, um, I went into it. Now I'm a mom of five daughters so, like this is the thing that, like my, my aunt and I are up about you know these sort of things and so I went into it watching for this inappropriate interaction between Sarah and Jareth and whether he was trying to um to seduce her like actively, was he chasing her? And? And so I asked them last episode was it problematic? And you know, you've heard from both of them.
Jamila Talbot:My position on it was that if you watch the movie as a complete narrative, he goes out of his way at every opportunity.
Jamila Talbot:Whenever he interacts with Sarah, even when he, even when he sold Toby, he does not really interact with her very much. He escapes her at every opportunity. He's not drawing her in. He actually does things to push her away from him, um, by, like, putting her in the bog of stench, putting her in the oubliette. So he's not seducing Sarah, he does not actually want her, he wants the baby and it's only when he's almost desperate that he moves into this fantasy of, or creating this fantasy around, her desire to be this princess and to have this like, because that's how the movie starts. For those of you who have not seen the movie, it starts off with her in this dramatic scene where she is this princess and you know, and they do a lot of foreshadowing blah blah, blah blah this princess and you know, and they do a lot of foreshadowing blah blah blah. So, and even when you look in her bedroom, she's got all of the pieces there for this scene.
Jamila Talbot:Now, now that I've said that, because I don't want this to be like me justifying like anything visually, is it? Is it icky? Yeah, yeah, the optics of it are not great and because of what Danny mentioned and I think you mentioned it too, katie the hyper-masculinity, the, the cod piece, I think had they softened him down a little bit where he wasn't well, first of all, had he been younger, right, had he not been so aggressively masculine. So you're thinking about, like, what is what's behind that codpiece? I'm thinking about it. You know I can't get away from it. So you have that kind of hyper masculinity and David Bowie's sexuality, which also cannot be avoided, right In this romance adjacent scene with a teenage girl.
Jamila Talbot:I don't think you can get out of, like the problematic optics of it. But I do not think that that was the intention of the scene. I think that we are now experiencing sort of the back look of like oh, I see it now, right, because we we understand more, we've grown more, you know, in our understanding. But I think when that scene was created, I don't think that it was created with this eye to like make this romance between this girl and this adult man, right, but again. You know, it's that whole intent versus impact, right, the impact is real and I don't know. I look, I got daddy issues. So I'm sorry if my dad is, I'm sorry if my dad is real and I don't know, I, I, I look, I, I got daddy issues, so like I'm sorry if my dad is.
Jamila Talbot:I'm sorry if my dad is listening to this but I had daddy issues. So you know. So the older man thing is fine, but you know I also, you know it's. There's an ick to it, but I don't think the ick was intentional, I think it was more an oversight yeah oh, an oversight yeah, I think too.
Katie Parsons:Like, like you were saying, in narrative wise, right, she's in that scene. It's like this character from a book, right, that she's into, or a play that she's into, is what's happening. It's just that up before that scene, like she's been in real, in real life in the movie, interacting with that character. It's not like she's sitting there reading a book and then the fantasy star, right, we've seen them interacting this whole time. Also and I just thought of this when you were talking about the hyper masculinity it's really the only time in the movie I guess maybe the first scene a little bit, because she's in costume where she's hyper feminine and I think that kind of rubbed me funny too, because one thing I really liked when she was out adventuring is and again it was 80s style, but like her clothing was somewhat androgynous, like she did have that bracelet on and things like that.
Katie Parsons:She had a vest on yeah she had a vest, like it was very like nothing tight or like form fitting, or you know she was a girl on a journey, but like nothing really signaled that into what she was doing, and so I think maybe the the switch for that too was this a lot like visually for me.
Dani Combs:Also, can we talk about what was happening in the background at the party, because I was getting some eyes wide shut vibes, like ah, I swear to God, like while I was watching, like now, now I say it, y'all see what I'm talking about. There's like people around in masks and they're dancing, but they're all like looking at her, like all crazy, weird, and I'm like. I looked at Troy and I was like this is like eyes wide shut and he was like what? And I'm like, nevermind, you probably haven't even seen that.
Dani Combs:So, nevermind, but I know what I'm talking about and I was like that that I think too really impacted on how I saw it. Now, obviously, as a kid I did would not pick up on like this masquerade sex party.
Katie Parsons:It feels predatory. Yeah, and I think part of that, part of that's David Bowie's character being an adult and all of that.
Jamila Talbot:But you're right, part of it's the't think you were supposed to feel sexually uncomfortable, right, but I think there was supposed to be an overlay of dread on that scene, because when she's going into that scene she's in this junkyard and she's nostalgic about you know. She finds her teddy bear and she's sitting at her. Oh, what do you call that? Her like like table?
Jamila Talbot:Her vanity, yeah, her vanity, where she had had a scene where she was thinking about at the beginning of the movie, where she was thinking about her mother who had passed away. And so I think that what that scene does well is gives you this fantasy in this pocket of dread and squirmy, discomfort and like, even the way that people are looking at her is uncomfortable. It was not exciting, it was not fun, it was like, I mean, I remember being a little kid and just being kind of like this is something is not, this is not right. So part of me, like again acknowledging that we're talking about a grown man seducing a child, and I don't want to in any way like hand wave that right. But also I think that some of this is that the discomfort is intentional and when we experience discomfort as people, we storytell around that, and so I think that's almost heightening, all of these things, to say like I am uncomfortable by the scene. Let me figure out why I'm uncomfortable. Okay, the adult child thing is immediately uncomfortable, cool.
Jamila Talbot:But also, like visually, what is? Because, also, that scene was visually different than anything. The colors were different, the lighting was different, the soft focus which you didn't see anywhere else. That movie had an inordinate amount of glitter throughout. Yeah, it was so much glitter, but that scene was totally different than everything else going on. Yeah, so I think that accounts for some of the discomfort. But as soon as they're out of that scene, he doesn't pick up the strand, right.
Jamila Talbot:He doesn't keep it going, he doesn't like it doesn't mark a tone change in their relationship which those those kind of scenes usually do like. Usually when you're, when you're telling a story of like two characters, a man and a woman, and then they have this like scene, like that, and then it shifts their relationship. It didn't really shift their relationship. She was still pissed at him, he was still avoidant, uh, and and getting an increasingly more fragile as she got closer, which I think is a thing we didn't mention. His own, like coming apart, as his, his, you know narrative is getting thwarted.
Jamila Talbot:So, yeah, so like I say all this to say like y'all, like, watch it and and process it and see what, what comes up for you, I just don't want it to be a throwaway. Oh, hang on, I'm covering again. I just don't want it to be a throwaway of like the easy reach which was this was the intent of the movie, because I don't think it was. I just think that that scene could have been if we remade that movie. I feel like that scene would not make it Right. Oh, it wouldn't be like. That scene would just be like.
Dani Combs:I feel like it could have been done differently. Right, like I feel like that scene would just be, like I feel like it could have been done differently. Right, like I feel like he there still could have been the party, it still could have been uncomfortable, he still could be like walking around stalking her and maybe not have that awkward ass dance moment, like I feel like they still could have done it. But you know what? It's interesting that you say that, because Katie and I do a series, a separate series called nostalgic or problematic, where we rewatch stuff. Um, and something we are learning is things from the eighties and nineties. We can never say one, it's one is a hundred percent one or a hundred percent the other, it's usually a little bit of both. Sometimes there's a more percentage of, you know, nostalgic than problematic. Sometimes it's the reverse, um, but I feel like that is probably the one thing in the movie that is problematic. Question mark that could be gone. Yeah, because I can't really think of anything else.
Jamila Talbot:no, the rest of rest of the time he's. It's very it's appropriate. Like he is avoidant of her, like he goes out of his way to be avoidant of her. That scene is just a break in that lens right. I also try to be aware of like is my perspective labeling this problematic, which, by the way, is totally like. I'm not trying to say that that's not valid, that is 100% valid. No-transcript. But that was OK in the eighties, um, but that was okay. Like you know, we have all of these songs, pop songs, that people still think that I'm like.
Jamila Talbot:This is about an adult man fantasizing about a teenage girl Like right, objectively, that's icky, um. So when I watched that scene, I was like is this my perspective? That is shifting this? Am I seeing this with my adult eyes? But as a kid, would I have interpreted this the same way? Would I have seen the eyes wide, shut things? Would I have interpreted this as romantic or would I have interpreted this somewhere?
Dani Combs:I think I remember it being romantic as a kid Right and it's interesting because, like my kid, the first time he saw it instantly he was like isn't, but? But that's because I think our kids are aware, like our kids are so much more aware of problematic behaviors than we were. Like it wasn't talked about, you know, I mean it, it was, but not in the way it is now. It's addressed head-on. Now, do you know what I mean?
Katie Parsons:yeah, yeah, and I I think that they are, they are almost hyper aware sometimes, which is a whole other thing well and a lot of that too is is what they have access to right, right, social media and things like that, which we can complain about all the day long, but there's a lot of good that's come out of that. There's a lot of discussions that are being had. I mean, I've noticed that with my own kids that their depth of understanding of things even at, like you know, 11, 12, 13 years old was I'm like we haven't had this discussion. How are you, how do you know so much about this and have such a healthy perspective and conversation about it? And a lot of that really is these outside conversations that they're seeing, that they can't avoid. And I think that relates back to media too.
Katie Parsons:Jamila, you said earlier, like you know, the turn of the century Wow, we were there guys, first-hand accounts, but how things were just very kind of toned down for kids and patronizing. But then it sort of has to shift now, or has shifted, because they have access to so much media. That's not that controlled group that we had. That like these are the movies you watch, these are the channels you watch. Are the channels you watch? It's like fragmented times, a zillion right. So how do you match, like these tiktok things that they're seeing and still get kids to watch movies or these sort of traditional forms of media. You have to talk about the things that they're already talking about right, yeah because it's already there.
Jamila Talbot:I and I'm going to do this and then we get back to labyrinth. I actually love to listen to people in my generation and the generation above, so, like I'm not going to pick on the boomers today, I'm going to pick on the older Gen Xers, because I'm starting to see it out of older Gen X people, like they were not here for the boomers, like doing the exact same shit to us. Like people, the amnesia is wild, but this whole like oh, gen Gen Alpha is they're so soft and they're so this and that. And I'm like, first of all. First of all, children are supposed to be soft. I don't know who needs to hear this. Children are supposed to be soft. They're not supposed to be hard. We as adults aren't supposed to be hard. That's trauma, baby. Like you are responding from a place of trauma if you think that kids need to be hard, hard.
Jamila Talbot:But these kids are getting such a tremendous and I will say this it comes with the negative right.
Jamila Talbot:Everything does, everything is in balance.
Jamila Talbot:So there are some negative aspects here, but what they are getting is a level of understanding about themselves that we were not allowed to have, because a lot of us, because of the way things were structured when we were children?
Jamila Talbot:Were it kept in these bubbles where your front, your parents, befriended the same kind of people who had the same kind of thoughts? You went to school in these areas that were greatly segregated, which we also don't want to talk about the fact that our country is still largely segregated so you grew up around people in your same economic class. You grew up so you were sort of caught in this echo chamber until sometimes you went into the military and got moved around, or you went into, you know, you went to college and you got to be around a churn of different people. So now what is happening is we have all of these kids who even though my kids don't have access to social media and we'll talk about that in a second a lot of kids are having access to social media or friends who have access to social media, and they're watching these conversations that are happening, that are giving them language for things and concepts that we may have felt, but there were no words for it.
Katie Parsons:Yeah.
Jamila Talbot:And if parents are smart and I'm going to say that if you are smart you are going to allow these children to challenge you and to help you address your own and identify at some point your own trauma, your neurodivergence, your embedded beliefs that need to just no longer exist Like they will challenge you and free you if you allow them to. But when we're talking about consumption of media, it's important to have these conversations and say because social media doesn't have it all right, so sometimes your kids are going to come through with stuff and you're going to be like whoa, hang on a second Let me let's do some reframing, let's let's add some context here, because you got a snapshot, let's build that out.
Jamila Talbot:But also, I'm going to encourage you to tell me how this makes you feel and how this sits with you, and I am going to listen to you with open ears and open heart and I'm going to decide is my, my perspective, or is this objective? You know, as close to objective truth as we can get, right? Yeah, but I think it's important for people not to hand wave the significant healing impact that Gen Alpha and Gen Z have the capacity for just because they have language for shit. That was, that was out of reach for us.
Katie Parsons:Oh my gosh, yeah, so true. I love what you said about how your children can help free you if you let them. You know like I'm thinking about. You know, like just examples, even my son and I like not to get too into the weeds. He's 17 and, um, he's recently gotten into like cooking and stuff, which is great, but, like you know, he has a lot to say about, like how I cook and how my husband cooks and how long we leave food out.
Katie Parsons:And you know, and I found myself saying things to him like like he's like, oh you, you got to put stuff away after two hours, cause I do the whole. Like Saturday morning here's a bunch of fruit and food. And just like, help yourself when you get up, cause I'm not standing in this kitchen all day making everyone breakfast. I got shit to do. But here you go. Oh well, you should be putting that stuff away. Stuff can't sit out. And then I'm arguing well, like blueberries can sit out. No, no, they can't bacteria.
Katie Parsons:And I found myself saying, look, I have fed six people seven, if you include myself not as often have I fed myself as I've fed all of you for this many years and no one's gotten sick. And then I like hear the words coming out and I said, you know what, though, I probably have something I can learn from you here, because nobody, I never, no one ever told me how long things to be. It's just like common sense to me. Or I Googled it at some point in my adult life, like, all right, tell me what you know, Tell me like what you're learning in that class. And that's a small example right Of me being like well, maybe I could do that a different way. It's so hard. And why am I being defensive? And I'm going, well, you all sleep till noon, so I'm trying to leave your food and dah, dah, dah. And he's just like I just don't want anyone to get sick. And I'm like, yeah, okay, fair, that's fair.
Jamila Talbot:I encourage my kids. Yeah, I encourage my kids to improve the system. I'm like, all right, no, I hear you now. This has always worked for me. I've never gotten sick, but I'm also a little loose and free with my, you know, like my food safety. Um, but, like, improve the system. Like, how would you change this? Or how can we do if I'm telling you that I'm doing it for this reason and I don't want it to go back in the fridge? Because it goes back in the fridge, I also live that life. If it goes back in the fridge, nobody is going to eat it and I want you guys to eat. How can we improve this so that both of our needs are met here? Um, because, like, being humble as an adult with your kids is incredibly important. But also, like they may say some shit that I'm like, well, I never even thought about that. Yes, absolutely. Like they may ask me why our tax is sad, you know, like, and blow my mind and also allow me to free myself from this trauma. So you know anyway.
Dani Combs:So, like it is like to like if you had a lot of trauma as a kid, like my first instinct for anything is to be defensive. Like I, it it does like so I will come in hot in two seconds. I didn't. I am. If my kids say something like I am defensive, like I have to apologize all the time. And Troy is so good, he's so good about like I mean, he was in the military, so he kind of like had to be like you can't be reactionary. I'd be like blow him up now. No, but I, he is so good about being like hey, like, just think about it for a second. And he's like you don't have to react to everything they say right away. Like you don't have to right away. So I always so like your trauma you don't want to pass on to your kids, cause, like you're saying how you just wanted to be like well, I, that's exactly what I do. And then I'm like, actually, what you said is smart and that's rewind, rewind. I have to rewind all the time, but that's something that I think our generation didn't have a lot of was our parents rewinding and saying, hey, I'm really sorry. Like I can't ever remember my parents don't listen to my podcast, but I can never remember a time of either of my parents apologizing to me, Never, ever. And I'm not. I'm not going to fault them because they were doing better than the generation before them, cause I didn't get beat, so like yeah, yeah, right. But I feel like, too, that comes into play with kids. And again, to circle back to what we were talking about in media and consumption and all the things, um, uh, I learned this from Jamila.
Dani Combs:Actually, I always tell my kids you can argue with me, you don't have to believe the same as me, but you better come with research and receipts, like I don't care if you feel like that, why you have to know, why you can't just say, because not good enough, yeah, you don't have to agree with me. And I will say my oldest, I mean he's almost 18. So he's almost a full adult, which is bizarre, but he will come to me and he will have those receipts. And then that's really sucky is when he presents to me really good. I say that jokingly sucky, it's great, but it's it makes things so much more challenging. Cause like we were having this huge discussion the other day, cause we are not we don't agree on on some of the same things politically, for the big ones, yes, Smaller things Not so much. And we were talking about healthcare, because he was talking about it in his econ class and I was like, well, I just that's not whatever, whatever. And he's like, well, actually, this, this, this and this.
Katie Parsons:And I was like, oh, oh well, okay, that's a well, that's a well formulated response. I was like oh, actually.
Jamila Talbot:I had to learn and we'll get off of it. I keep saying we're going to go back, I. One of the biggest things that I had to learn is not to take it personally, like, yeah, but when you grow up and we talk about this and, like I, hold healing circles and we talk about these kind of things because we need to talk about it. One of the things that I notice a lot in our generation is we even though our parents, for a lot of us, like my parents, did not hit me as much as they got hit Right, and so two things can be true at the same time my parents did so much better than got hit Right, and so two things can be true at the same time my parents did so much better than they grew up with, but, like they, there were things that, like still were not great Right, and so for us, a lot of us were critiqued and criticized in place of being struck, and so we receive criticism badly, because the times that we got criticized were times when our parents were trying to.
Jamila Talbot:It was punitive criticism. It was you're not doing this right and now you're going to get in trouble instead of just being like hey, here's a way that we can do this better. You know, because we're all growing and we make mistakes and like it wasn't for and I'm speaking in generalities it wasn't wrapped in this positive growth mindset, it was punitive. You're going to get criticized before you get punished, and so that gets into you, that becomes a pattern, and so we don't receive into you. That becomes a pattern and so we don't receive.
Jamila Talbot:We receive criticism and critique the same way, and it's personal, it's you're doing this to hurt me.
Jamila Talbot:And so when you have that reactive response, when our kids come up to us and say here's a thing you could be doing better, or I noticed this, or this hurts my feelings, when this happens and they're trying to like communicate with us, a lot of us get reactive because, hey, when you criticize me, that's like a bad thing.
Jamila Talbot:And then add to that, we were told as children that when we got to be adults we could, we would be in charge and we wouldn't have to receive punitive punishment. We would get to enact that on someone else. So we have this trigger in us that's like, oh, I don't have to take your critique right, because I'm in charge now and when you try to hurt me, I can hurt you back because I'm bigger and so sort of dismantling all that to say it's not personal, like you're telling me a thing because this is your experience of life, right, and it's. I always say, like my kids are not thinking about me that much, like they're saying a thing to me because it, because it occurred to them, because their brains are like still developing and they're not thinking about, well, mom's going to take this and mom's going to mom's got these patterns that she's trying to heal.
Jamila Talbot:They're not thinking about that. They're like, hey, when you make this, it sucks and I don't like it. Or when you say this thing to me, it's like, yeah, makes me have feelings and I'm concerned about my feelings because that's developmentally appropriate. So I just remind myself every day like my kids behavior is not about me. My kids critiques are not about me, but how I respond to them is about me and it's showing them how we respond to living with other people, and we're allowed to critique each other. When we're living together, we're allowed to express ourselves, we're allowed to talk about how we impact each other for the sake of compromise.
Katie Parsons:Yeah.
Jamila Talbot:So like I say all that, to say like that's not about you, boo.
Katie Parsons:Yeah, well, it's so funny because even this morning, right before I came to the studio, my husband and I dropped off one of our kids at the high school and then he dropped me off here because of cars and all sorts of things, relationship things at school, whatever. Um, and like right before we dropped them off at school, they made a comment like oh, is there like another hurricane out there? Because we just like didn't really get hit here by by hurricane helene, but other places in florida did. And my husband kind of like yeah, I don't know, we'll keep an eye on it. And this child, literally as they're walking out the door well, maybe we could actually prepare this this time and then gets out and shuts the door and I'm like hello, wow.
Katie Parsons:And my husband's like now the child's gone, and my husband to me well, we da, da, da, da da. And we did. And I was keeping an eye on it and I said, just let it be. Yeah, this person's having a bad day, and took it out on us right before they slammed that door. It's not a critique on what we did or didn't do to prepare for this non-event that happened to us.
Katie Parsons:Yeah, just let it be leave it alone in their moment and if you spent all day making a list of all the ways you prepared, when you see this child again, they are not even going to remember.
Jamila Talbot:yeah, just let it go yeah, just let you know, and like you're allowed to, like I will, I will get, like I will get my husband in a room and I'll I like, do the talk, like, and then. And then she said this to me and I was like, girl, you don't even know, like I'm straight, I'm good, I will get on you like like they don't know how I'm healing, right, I'm healing and I'm trying not to get this trauma all over you. But here you are, like trying to get this and I will do that with my husband, like because my feelings are valid and I'm allowed to have them Right. And so we go in our little powwows and like not powwows, I hate to use that term but we go and we have our little conversations where we are just like venting our toxicness and we acknowledge that that's what it is.
Jamila Talbot:It's like I have all these toxic patterns that I and I just need to let it out so that when I go talk to this person, I can be the like evolved parent who's like yes, listen, I know that, like, that comment that you made was not at me, but also I'm a person and I have feelings. Because I do say this. I'm like, I'm a person and I have feelings, because I do say this to like I'm a person and I have feelings, and we need to be careful about the way that we interact with each other so that you know we can minimize the hurt feelings.
Dani Combs:Yeah.
Dani Combs:Um, but also sis watch it Like I there's times I'll be at Troy and I'll do the same thing. Usually it's him pulling me to be like I'm like taking my earrings off, like I'm like ready, and then he's like you need to say because a hundred times, a hundred percent of the time, if I just get, get, take a second, I will have a different reaction, absolutely. It's just remembering that. But you know, it's funny because my kids will tell me like if I start to get too in my trauma, they will say it's not about you, mom and man, when you hear your kids say that, it pisses you off. But then it's like, oh, they're so right.
Jamila Talbot:Like my kids will tell me to take a breath, and I hate it. Oh God, I me too. But I'm like, you're right, you're right. They're like do you need to go have a? Maybe you need to go have a bath and I'm like cause bath? Like that's like my code for like. I need to go decompress, I go take and they're like maybe you need to go.
Katie Parsons:Maybe you need to go and get in a room by yourself and shut the door. Yeah. Oh my gosh, we knew we were going someplace, we didn't know. We're gonna get back, we're gonna get back to labyrinth.
Dani Combs:Right now we're gonna talk a little bit more, okay, so do you think we were talking?
Jamila Talbot:oh, I didn't say the thing that I didn't like yeah, no, because we went right to the scene.
Jamila Talbot:We did, we went to the scene, um, so that's, that'll make the list. I will say I did not like. I'm with, I'm in the camp with Danny, where I didn't like Sarah and I do. I can see Katie you saying she didn't have like, she did not learn and grow Right, which was a big thing for the 80s. Everybody had to learn and grow, learn and grow right, which was a big thing for the 80s. Everybody had to learn and grow Like. Everybody had to have the arc and the redemption arc and you all had to be like. You know, changed at the end and she didn't. She was still like, she was bratty at the beginning and she was bratty at the end, and I'm sure she's going to yell at Toby again, but she did go get him and she went to extraordinary lengths to get him. Now, now, whether she went because she wanted to or because she didn't want to get in trouble with her dad, I don't know. I don't know. It's both are on the table.
Jamila Talbot:But I did not like her because to me, she is like the embodiment of white feminine feminism where, like, you don't have to listen, you don't have like, these people who are talking to you, live here in this place and you are steady, not listening to anything that they have to tell you. You are not allowing yourself to absorb the knowledge that you don't deserve but they are giving to you anyway. Yeah, I mean, were they a little questionable sometimes? Sure, a little questionable sometimes, sure, but at the very beginning she could have been done if she had just right, like chilled out and and listened to what people were saying. Um, so that to me, like there's so much like white feminism in that of like going into people's spaces and like not listening to them and doing whatever you want. Um, also, the baby as a mom. So it didn't bother me as much as it as younger, but like as a as a mother of so many children.
Jamila Talbot:The crying baby and miserable toby like he had such real tears yes, he, and we'll get into that with the trivia but like he cried the whole time, yes, and like stuff that like was supposed to be funny and light-hearted, I was like stop throwing that baby. Like he is a human being, knock it off, um. And then I didn't love the ending because it just like there was such this wonderful like story and this land and it was fully immersive, and then I felt like the ending was just kind of like oh well, you caught him and now he's kind of gonna you know, kind of gonna give up because you said this whole thing. One of the things that I think the story kind of fell was that and I don't know if it got lost on the edit like you have to think about it like, did it get lost in editing? Was that I think the end would have been more impactful if they had stronger ties to whatever she was quoting from throughout the movie. That's true.
Jamila Talbot:Like she could have identified things because she was like oh, this wasn't because she was clearly referencing a piece of literature. Right, if she had said, oh, I know what this is, because it was in this book, that similar to Never Ending Story. It was in this book that I read and it was oh, and now I know what to say to him, because this was in this adventure book that I was reading. I don't think that they made that tie strong enough. Yeah, so it seemed. I mean, I got there as a kid, like I understood it, but I think that you were sort of I understood it because I wanted to like it if that makes sense I don't think that thematically it was, or narratively it was well done or as well as it could have been.
Dani Combs:Yeah, the ending was kind of empty, like yeah, it just felt very rushed Didn't we say that last time? Like it felt like it just like, oh, we got to end it now and again. Like you said, it could have been something on the editing floor. But actually that kind of gives us a segue into our trivia, because didn't you say there was another type of ending, that there?
Jamila Talbot:there was. There was another ending to um, to the movie, where jareth um turns into a god. So when she does, when she confronts him, she punches him. Yeah, sarah punches him, and then he turns into a little goblin and runs away.
Katie Parsons:I love it. I would have loved that. You would have liked that. Yeah, I would have liked that. I would have liked that.
Jamila Talbot:Yeah, I have mixed feelings about it. I liked him turning into the owl. Yeah, I liked the mystery that it left behind of like is Gareth, you know, not Gareth Jareth? Can Jareth come back? Like where's he going? Like, yeah, I just I left it open, um, but yeah, yeah, so that was one of the the other proposed endings I like it.
Dani Combs:Yeah, I mean, I think that just would have been satisfying, like maybe that's it, like pop you in the face and then, boom, you're a goblin, like it's maybe, maybe she had popped him in the face, um, maybe, but again there's still that weird, like adult child kind of true.
Jamila Talbot:True, you know, and and I'm gonna say this that level of overt violence. One of the the big things that I have, one of the big problems that I have when we have narratives led by women or girls, is that they have to and I'm going to be very careful in the way that I say this they have to emulate masculinity in order to be successful, and I think that we lose something in that, and not necessarily men versus women, that kind of thing, but masculinity and femininity, both are strong aspects and attributes, and so that sort of overt violence is a masculine trait. Her just using her words to dismantle him to me was a very strong stance to take for her, and she didn't have to lose her femininity in order to win yeah, good point yeah, also she.
Jamila Talbot:She was in her head for most of the movie. She was figuring it out. You know, um, as much as I didn't like her, she was thinking her way even through that, yeah, that scene that we didn't like. She fought her way out of that scene, true?
Dani Combs:so good, point to me the punch, even though there is a satisfaction to it um would have felt off tone yeah, yeah, again, here I am reactionary yeah, punch him in the face, girl take those earrings off.
Jamila Talbot:Yeah, hold my earrings oh my god, he's ruining your whole night. All right, so let's do some quick trivia. Yay, yay, all right. Toby, the baby is actually um the name of the little boy I love like that was his actual name, um, he is the son of brian froud. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. Um, who designed the puppets for the movie? Toby's name in the script was Freddy, oh, but the baby wouldn't react when his name was called.
Katie Parsons:Yeah.
Jamila Talbot:So they just let him have his own name.
Katie Parsons:I mean as babies do.
Dani Combs:Right, right, if they even react to their own name, right and we call him a baby.
Jamila Talbot:In the grand scene of things he is a baby, but he is a toddler. He's a toddler for sure. So by then he does have name recognition.
Jamila Talbot:Yeah so you know, I'm sure somebody is screaming a weird name at me, especially because he because, as I'm going to say, he didn't really want to be there In the um, in the scenes where toby is seated on the goblin king jareth's david bowie's lap, the baby has a fixed and hypnotized look off camera. Yeah, because jareth is talking to him, right. Well, what was happening is that he screamed so much during the takes that the only way they could keep him quiet was by David Bowie wearing this puppet, this glove puppet called Sooty, out of frame, and so, as he was talking, he was also like using the puppet to keep Toby entertained so they could get through the scene. To keep Toby entertained, so they could get through the scene. I love this.
Katie Parsons:I feel like that's just so extra, because I would envision, like a different set person the puppet, yeah, so he could act. And then that person's trying to get the baby's attention, but no, no, he's just like, oh, give me a sock puppet.
Dani Combs:I was ready for you to do a David Bowie impersonation.
Katie Parsons:I was so close, but then I didn't want to do it wrong.
Jamila Talbot:I was like yeah, I was like nope, we're not gonna do it. We're not gonna do it. I think, as I read, there was both like there was a a crew member at some points doing it, and then also because he had to sit and interact oh yeah too.
Jamila Talbot:Um, so I just think that, uh, hilarious. I love that there was a puppet. Um, I wish I could find a picture of the puppet, just because I'm curious. Um, all right, so david bowie did the gurgling of the baby in magic dance uh-uh, I do not, I do not.
Dani Combs:So now, not only was he wearing a fun codpiece and had killer makeup, he also can do a baby gurgle. He also does baby gurgle and sock puppets, and sock puppets. Yeah, the talent is endless, endless.
Jamila Talbot:All right, jared's name is only spoken five times in the entire movie. Wow, which, like I felt like it was more, I know, and I think four of the five times was by um, hoggle, hoggle, yeah, um, which you know makes sense, I guess, because Hoggle knew Jareth. Um, anyway, all right, michael Jackson, prince and Mick Jagger and Sting were all in consideration for the part of Jareth. Oh, my gosh, jim Henson wanted Sting.
Jamila Talbot:Ew, no, I know, I know Lame I know he wanted Sting, but it was actually his kids who talked him into auditioning. Uh, um, David Bowie, that's amazing.
Dani Combs:That's so great. I but I mean come on, prince Prince would have been Prince would have been amazing, and you know what I just thought about Michael Jackson, do you remember? I don't know if anybody went to Disney in the late eighties and he had the Captain EO.
Katie Parsons:Oh my gosh.
Dani Combs:I loved that so much.
Jamila Talbot:I don't think that Michael Jackson could have pulled off the sinister, like Prince had a sinister kind of playfulness to him that I think I mean he just would have been Prince, he would have just been like it would have been the same with it.
Jamila Talbot:He would have just been himself. Um, and I think by this point he had done purple rain. I don't think he had done under the cherry moon, but you know. So he was sort of known for his terrible. It was terrible, His acting is objectively terrible, but I think he just would have been petty prince and it would have been great. But I don't know. Sting and no. Sting and no. Michael Michael Jackson would have just been. I think he would have. Just I would have identified with him like I just feel like he would have been too gentle.
Dani Combs:I was just thinking like I don't think he could have pulled off the fierceness that David Bowie had and also Prince would could have pulled off the fierceness that David Bowie had and also Prince would have brought. Like they have fierceness and I don't. I don't think of fierce when I think of Michael Jackson and any era of his. I just know I think of other things, but not fierceness, yeah, yeah.
Jamila Talbot:And Prince would have had that weird sexual vibe to him.
Dani Combs:Oh yeah.
Jamila Talbot:He would have the codpiece. He would have wanted it. Oh, absolutely Definitely. It would have also been more glitter for no reason.
Dani Combs:Way more, way more.
Jamila Talbot:Actually I would like a bedazzling codpiece that sounds fun For yourself I don't think I would ever wear it, but I'd have it, I'd own it and I'd pull it out for conversation. Yeah, I would. Yeah, I like it. I'd be like oh, that's my, that, that's my bedazzled cod piece, yeah, yeah do you want to?
Dani Combs:tell you about that. Oh my god, let me tell you why I have that?
Jamila Talbot:for no reason. Um. So the various things that Jareth does with the crystal balls, rolling them around his arms and his hands, um, are not camera tricks. They are not even special effects. They were done by a professional juggler nice um, named michael motions um. So he actually stuck his hands like under like you know, we talked about this like yeah, under. Like you know, we talked about this like yeah, when you know. Anyway, put his hands like under Jareth and then did all of the tricks in front of of David Bowie, that's hilarious.
Dani Combs:That's like the old youth group game. That's what I was saying, Like yeah, do skits. And like somebody would stand there, put their arms behind their back and you would stand behind them and stick your arms through and do all the funny things.
Jamila Talbot:So that's how they feed them. You have to feed them Like that was for some reason a requirement with those games, cause you just want to shove something in and like, like, thinking back on, it's disgusting. But yes, same concept. But yeah, that's great. I love that. That's so eighties yeah, it was. What's even cooler is because he was behind David Bowie the entire time. He had to perform all those tricks blind.
Dani Combs:So it was all done.
Katie Parsons:Yeah, that's amazing and you're like hugging David Bowie the whole time, yeah, and trying to be like I'm okay, everything is fine, don't?
Jamila Talbot:panic, just laying on my thighs and I'm juggling it's fine, I promise I will not hit you in the face with this. It's going to be fine, all right. The owl in the title sequence is computer generated. It is the first attempt at photorealistic CGI animal characters in a feature film.
Dani Combs:Wow Okay, I mean you can tell it's 80s, cgi.
Jamila Talbot:Yeah, it's 80s CGI, absolutely, but listen blew my mind when I was a kid. Okay, yeah, really cool Mind blowing. Um, okay, this one kind of makes me sad, just because I really love Jim Henson. Due to its failure when originally released, this is the final movie directed by Jim Henson. His son has revealed that the time after Labyrinth's release was very difficult for Henson. However, it wasn't long before the flop gained a huge cult following, restoring his faith in his work.
Dani Combs:Oh good. Yeah, because it was. It was a box office failure. Yeah, it was a bomb office failure. Yeah, it was a bomb. Yeah, people did not. In fact, I don't even remember watching it till we had it like on vcr tape, or it was like on hbo or something like that yeah, like yeah I, I didn't. I did not see that one in the theater it's, it's really.
Jamila Talbot:I got it from the blockbuster. Yeah, it was arrows at that point.
Katie Parsons:Yeah yeah, yeah, well and like, and then yet here we are in 2024 talking about it, right, like that idea of legacy and all those things. And I think it's hard, when you're especially a jim henson who, objectively, everyone loves everything you ever do, yeah, to feel then like, oh, but not everyone loved this, right, but to still be like, proud of that work, the quality that you all have talked about and the puppets, and to kind of remove yourself from the commercial side of it and be like, yeah, but I made art for art's sake and the right people will always find that I don't think I'm the right person, but y'all found it, and I mean just like I think you needed to have it in a very vulnerable, impressionable stage in your life.
Jamila Talbot:I think so it's too late for me. It's too late for me and that's OK.
Dani Combs:I'm.
Katie Parsons:OK with that, but it's very inspiring, like as a performer and an artist. Not everything has to be the hit of the century or even popular with people you like, like you know, even in community theater, for it to matter and to do it anyway.
Dani Combs:yeah, yeah, you know, and make an impact on someone, yeah you know anyway, or just create for creation's sake, absolutely, that's right sometimes you can just make things you just you can. Yeah, you can not everything yes, well, okay, we've kept you for 100 hours total so many hours.
Jamila Talbot:Oh wait, wait, wait, there's one more, oh, okay, okay. There's one more, and this is the important one, because we had another conversation about this the movie filmed next door to legend oh, that's right I know yeah yeah, oh, my god that's actually the perfect one to end on, because you guys, jamila is gonna come back.
Dani Combs:Katie's never seen another cult classic legend and we're gonna watch it. We're gonna watch it together, though I have to. I have to see your face.
Jamila Talbot:You can keep. You can keep her awake. I'm a third popcorn on your face.
Dani Combs:You're not gonna be able to fall asleep during the lobby. I'm just saying Lobby, we'll watch it.
Jamila Talbot:No puppets in this one. There's no puppets in this one. It's all people, it's all amazing costumes, it's all a lot of costuming and and people and small people, yeah, so she's going to come back and we're going to do that.
Dani Combs:Yeah, we're going to do legend. So thank you so much, jamila, for coming back on and redoing this conversation. I will say, I think this one was even better.
Katie Parsons:Oh, definitely, definitely.
Dani Combs:With an hour of parenting advice.
Jamila Talbot:There was like y'all just take that for a way. You know, listen the kids, the kids who are out there, and get your parents to listen to this episode.
Dani Combs:Okay, we'll fix them for you Just kidding, I can't and to our kids who listen.
Katie Parsons:we're trying. Okay, we said we were. We said it into a microphone that we're trying, so it must be true.
Dani Combs:Keep apologizing, cause that's what I do Anyways. Thank you, jamila, and thank you for listeners, for joining us here on generation between, if you liked what you heard, share us. Share us with all your family and friends, no matter what generation they belong, to Give us a like, give us a follow on all the social media platforms and give us reviews, because we still need those. That bumps us up in the lovely algorithms that I don't understand how they work, but, katie, does so do the reviews.
Dani Combs:You can also find us over on Patreon, where you can have access to our bonus after show. You never know what we're going to talk about over there. And uh, yes, at some point we will have that special March we keep talking about I, that is supposed to be my job and I am bailing at that. So it's coming. I swear to God, it's coming, but until next time, everyone don't take too many things for granted, or the Goblin King might pay you a visit with his copies.
Katie Parsons:Bye everybody.
